Detect Insult
Do you want to know the secret of magic? Then look no further than Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone, page 51, British Hardcover. As everyone’s favorite half-giant introduces Harry to the wizarding world, we’re treated to this intriguing little exchange.
‘But what does a Ministry of Magic do?’
‘Well, their main job is to keep it from the Muggles that there’s still witches an’ wizards up an’ down the country.’
‘Why?’
‘Why? Blimey, Harry, everyone’d be wantin’ magic solutions to their problems. Nah, we’re best left alone.’
What I think Hagrid is trying to say here is that magic, despite its reputation, cannot solve all the world’s problems. It’s a tool to be used, not a replacement for your brain. Despite this warning, I’ve seen more than one mage use a “detect” spell in place of common sense. The classic example is the “can I smite it?” paladin. This guy looks at an NPC, asks, “Is it evil?” and then swings for the fences. Never mind that the poor decapitated schmo was the king’s royal vizier.
Same deal with magic detection and magic items. Doing a quick scan of the room is a good idea, but there are too many lead-lined caskets in the world to make detect magic a good replacement for an old fashioned Perception check. Heck, one of the modules I ran recently threw a ring of regeneration in front of a 7th level party. That thing was worth nearly four times the suggested wealth-by-level for a 7th level PC, and the party sold it for a measly 150 gp because it didn’t have a detectable aura. No one thought to try it on.
Granted, that last one was a bit of a dick move on the module’s part, but the point stands. Assume nothing. Investigate everything. Don’t let magic do your thinking for you.
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I’ve seen this coming up in Pathfinder Society fairly often. As a GM who usually plays, you begin to see the silly side of things.
It’s common to have at least one Guidance monkey in the group. PC wants to Disable Device? Guidance, +1 to the check. Perception to look for loot? Guidance. Want to buff an ally in combat but you want to save spells? Boop, +1.
But the last time I ran a scenario, the party was speaking with a major in his own estate as part of an investigation into a kidnapping. Naturally, with our Paladin spearheading the diplomatic effort, the Guidance Dispenser (a Spiritualist) wanted to do his part. I had to remind him that suddenly casting an unprovoked magic spell in the middle of a conversation, and directly in front of the major, might just be a bad idea.
Thankfully, he was still able to try for an Aid Another…. along with his Phantom. Silly me, going out of my way to remind him random spells might be troublesome, but completely forgetting that he has an ectoplasmic ghost-like creature at his side the whole time. I had to handwave that one with a “something something people expect strange things to exist in Golarion” excuse so the scenario wouldn’t get delayed. We were on a time limit, after all.
Yup. The much talked-about silent-spell / still spell ruling dictates that magic is never…ever…almost never…subtle. In my own game, casting charm person is considered magical assault, and the local constabulary treats it as such. In general, I imagine that it’s bad form to begin casting in any grand high muckety muck’s presence without permission.
Even that feat only states they don’t realise what you’re doing “until it is too late”. They still know you did something spooky plain as day, they just can’t smack you in the head in order to prevent spookiness from occurring in the first place.
I’m glad 5e went a different direction with Divine Sense/Detect Evil and Good. These are now Outsider detectors, not alignment detectors. They will let you know if the NPC you are talking to is a disguised Succubus, not if they are just kind of a dick.
However, Paladins got screwed over by this change, because detecting the presence of these sorts of creatures within 60′ but not behind full cover means that the creature being detected is almost certainly aware of the Paladin already. Therefore, it has pretty much no use in combat or exploration, and only serves as a disguised Outsider detector in social settings in 99% of cases.
Wow, that module is mean.
Slightly off topic, but why do people wear Rings of Regeneration on their fingers? I read a book once where someone wore one on their toe and thought it was brilliant, but they didn’t take the concept to its conclusion. Obviously if you have a Ring of Regeneration you should have it implanted. You don’t even need a real surgeon, just cut a hole and push it in there. The ring will take care of the rest.
Now see, I would imagine that Divine Smite is more of an ambush detector. “I sense something foul nearby… Ready yourselves!”
As for the elective ring-implant surgery, Pathfinder says nay:
“Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as 15 magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body, known as a “slot.””
No kidney rings for Golarion’s heroes!
I suppose, but again, it’s only 60′ and blocked by cover. You may fail to detect the enemies laying in ambush unless they are hiding behind something that isn’t solid.
Pathfinder’s ruling there doesn’t really jive with D&D lore, or at least Forgotten Realms lore. I can think of two examples of someone wearing a magic item in a way other than was intended: the Ring of Regeneration on the toe, as mentioned, and Drizz’t wearing bracers of speed around his legs. 5e likewise does not care; the limit is attunement, not body parts, so you can wear boots of speed as earmuffs if you really care to. =)
Oh man… Ima have to push up my glasses for this one. *nerd snort* Well actually…
Source: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Magic%20Items#content
Huh, neat. Thanks for that clarification. I learn something new about 5e all the time. =)
That is disappointing, though. I don’t know why they care, considering you can only attune to 3-4 magic items.
You know what? If Bob Salvatore can shove bracers onto the most famous set of ranger/barbarian/fighter legs to ever walk the planes, then I think you’re allowed to wear earmuff boots at your own table.
Despite my technical correctitude, my actual opinion is this: 5e was written by Captain Barbossa. Everything is guidelines. Nothing is rules. If I was gaming at a table with a magical toe ring, I would give a thumbs up to the shenanigans and raise zero objections.
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Eating_jewelry
Just wanted to point out that only certain magical items require attunement in 5e. Most of the common ones, including your average magical rings, do not take up an attunement slot. Attunement is designed to, like most things in 5e, prevent too many beneficial effects stacking on at once.
After years of playing Paladins, I’ve found that it’s generally polite to keep Detect Evil deactivated until you find something that you need to clarify is worth smiting. Another way to say it is that DE is there to catalog an enemy that you already have, rather than find out who to turn into an enemy.
There aren’t enough smites to walk through your average hamlet if you base your fights off of who pings.
Besides, who knows? Maybe they’re dicks to everyone in general, but they had a convincing reason to help you out with whatever you’re doing? Senor Representative up there might well be plotting to assassinate his rival for the Vizier’s position, but maybe he likes the way (cough) Thief looks and was about to offer a handy tip to get into the Emperor’s good graces from the start.
Out of curiosity, what makes you use the term “polite?” Did the ability offend someone in-game one too many times, or do you mean it’s just easier on the game to not spam the ability?
Both are correct, actually. In game, Detecting Evil is essentially saying “You might be a wicked person and I won’t take the chance with you.” to whoever you’re detecting, even if they’re clearly helping you.
Out of game, yeah, there’s that 60 foot cone of effect, and the DM having to check your position every time you ask or (if you’re doing more along Mind’s Eye Theater) having to decide if ‘certain NPC is being looked at or has escaped notice’ slows things down to a muddy chug. Plus, the things that you’ll normally be smiting anyway (in a combat situation) are generally your enemies already and wasting all the rounds that it actually takes to make sure that That Specific Thing is evil is unheard of.
Most people don’t treat Detects like that, but the first round only gets you ‘the presence or absence of evil’ and that’s only really useful if there’s just the one thing that you haven’t already checked in your whole cone. Second round gives you the power of the strongest thing, and it’s only on the third round of concentration on this spell where you get the location, which is where the actual ‘ping’ happens for an evil individual.
Staring at a fellow for 18 seconds is a little weird, with very few circumstances mitigating that.
Edit: 30 foot cone in Pathfinder. 60, in 3.5
In PF at least, Paladins don’t need to do the 18 second staredown: “A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.”
Ha! Join the argument:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/6jwgyw/is_paladins_detect_evil_rude/
You know what magic items tend to not have an aura, Cursed ones,
I’d be more scared of a “mundane” ring than a magic one
Yeah, exactly. Of course players aren’t going to try it on. The proper item is SUPPOSED to have a detectable magic aura. Magic items without a detectable aura are almost always traps. It’s pretty widely known that it’s a bad idea to test magic items out by just trying to use them. I mean… that’s basically the whole deal with cursed items. It’s just one extended lesson of “use the proper tools for the job kids”.
Punishing people for having learned that lesson is just… bad.
I’ve been thinking about this since I first posted. The ring in question came from a Monte Cook adventure, and I know that he’s not a bad designer. Why would he include it then?
Some additional context first. It’s a megadungeon adventure, so there’s plenty to discover. It certainly isn’t expected that any party will find 100% of the adventure’s secrets. The players have also stumbled across a couple of magic items that don’t have auras by this point in the adventure, meaning that they’ve got fair warning that that’s a possibility in this world. Finally, like I said before, this ring is way overpowered, being worth practically all of a four-man party’s suggested wealth by level when the PCs find it.
Rather than a “punishment for bad play,” I think that this ring is supposed to be a reward for “daring play.” It gives a bonus to the chaotic neutral madman that wants to push the big red button or touch the weird glowing crystal. Even assuming that guy is in your group, it’s highly unlikely that even he will try on a plain gold ring found on a random torture victim’s corpse. Even if he tries it on, he’ll still have to figure out why he seems to be spontaneously healing. It is the rare player that will solve this riddle, and so the reward is preposterously large.
I may not agree with it myself, but I think it’s an extraordinary design choice on Cook’s part. It looks like “bad design” because it runs contrary to so many of our own design assumptions, but I think it’s a mistake to dismiss it outright.
Well if it’s already been established earlier in the adventure that this kind of thing happens then it isn’t bad design. It’s just teaching a lesson specific to that adventure. Which is… odd, but not necessarily “bad” anymore. It’s still odd though because it is teaching people to play badly outside of that adventure. Then again one way or another any adventure or GM will be teaching people lessons that don’t apply or are in fact “wrong” with other adventures or GMs. Still… not sure THAT is the thing I’d pick to mess with. *shrug*
If it weren’t a matter of player wealth by level, I’d go out of my way to make all sorts of fancy schmancy magical doodads, such as some eyeware with a dozen “detect” spells in it, and silent image to give a visual representation of all the things it would be detecting… No one has to know I’m scanning their alignment, their magic items, what they had for breakfast, their firstborn son’s best friend’s middle name, and the exact date that the pet dog they had as a child unfortunately died in a freak accident involving a dire eagle.
When the limitations of magic are arbitrary, it’s a wonder that people DON’T do the things they do.
I think people limit themselves for the sake of the game. If you’ve got all of those abilities, it makes it awfully tough on the poor GMs and designers of the world. As you say, wealth-by-level places a limit on this kind of thing, but more than that I think that the nature of narrative acts as a limit. What fun is it to know all the secrets of the world rather than ferret them out the hard way? Sure you’re winning the game, but you’re also ruining it.
If the “goggles of even truer seeing” were invented by a character in the game world, I imagine that they’d have some kind of madness curse on them. “Oh Gods… I can see forever. AAAAHHHHHH!” The limitations of magic may be arbitrary, but that’s only because there’s a human at the head of the table trying to figure out how to maintain game balance.
I like the ol’ “magic/technology is indistinguishable…” line here. If you, personally, went back in time to medieval Europe I’m sure everyone would love the idea of being able to instantly send messages across an entire continent, until you started to explain about telegraph cables, electricity, morse code, etc.
In other words, magic is only a quick-and-easy solution to people who don’t understand it. In the time it takes a wizard to learn and master the Summon Stone Wall spell, a farmer could have built 5 stone walls by hand. And once you’ve learned it maybe it’s quicker, but what did it take to get there? If you give your standard NPC farmer a choice between a hammer (for building) and a sword (for fighting), most would take the hammer because they know they’ve got a maybe 1% chance of surviving to the point where they would know enough magic to retire and let the Unseen Servants handle all the plowing and planting and harvesting and sheering and mucking out the stable, etc etc etc.
Oh sure. I think there are any number of ways that the “if magic were real” question can go. But when you’re imagining large scale systems, I think it’s tough to actually predict until you put ’em into practice. And since I don’t know any practicing magicians, the only way to do that is give a bunch of schmos (read: the PCs) some rules and let the world go like a weird wind up toy. Maybe they start a magic academy for underprivileged commoners. How does that affect the world?
That said, I really do like your metaphor for technology. Telling an electrician to “just call for help” after you’re trapped in a mine collapse sounds A LOT like a big dumb fighter telling a wizard to just magic them to safety.
Oh man, that misidentified Ring of Regeneration could be an awesome plot-hook.
• A city haunted/hunted by a supposedly-immortal ghoul.
• A recently widowed heiress, being stalked by a thieves guild.
• Heck, even a simple murder mystery: pawn shop owner found dead, a broken box of gold rings scattered across the floor.
It’s the beauty and the tragedy of the megadungeon. There are so freakin’ many plot hooks, you’re forced to pick and choose what gets screen time. Awesome ideas though!
Oh yes, the detect magic scan. Ever the bane of the detail-rich DM who wants players to search properly and find only some of their hidden doodads!
I now specify the limits of detect magic from the get-go, so as to avoid sore players when it doesn’t reveal the magic trap they just stepped in, or indicate whether the totally ordinary-looking sword being offered to them for 1,000 gp is magical or not. So for me, detect magic only reveals currently active magic effects-and even then is overidden by nondetection.
I do wish it would lead to me catching more players with cursed items, too, but now there is almost religious application of the identify spell before anyone uses an item…
One more aspect of the vicious GM v Player arms race.
I just dislike the “checklist” style of play. The sort of stuff listed in the tale of the gazebo:
https://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html
If you look at your spells and powers as a list of all conceivable available options, you wind up missing out on unique ideas and interactions. Your character may live a long time, but I don’t really call opening doors and going through a pre-flight checklist living.
As far as the arms race, I feel like about 60% of stuff should ping on “detect magic.” The rest should be wrapped in lead or other plot devices. That way it’s still useful, but not foolproof.