Mr. Flippy
Stop me if you’ve heard any of these before.
“What do you mean you pick the lock? You don’t have any thieves’ tools.”
“I use my dagger.”
“How exactly are you going to make that Medicine check? You don’t have a healer’s kit.”
“Dagger again. I only want to perform a little open heart surgery!”
“What do you mean you repair your armor? Have you got a travel anvil in your pack?”
“Dagger, bro! I hammer away with the pommel.”
It is for reasons like these that the gods have given us the traveler’s any-tool. More than reducing the number of random backpack items you have to carry, it reduces the number of argument GMs have to have with overly-ingenious players.
Swiss army tools notwithstanding, there seem to be two schools of thought when it comes to this sort of inventive gameplay. The first is a hard-and-fast nope. It doesn’t matter how many bonuses you have. If you’re rocking the wrong tool for the job, some things are just impossible (e.g. you can’t cut a rope with a hammer.) On the other hand, cartoon physics insist that you don’t have to convince reality that something works. You just have to convince your GM. That includes the variant of anime physics (e.g. you can cut a rope with a hammer if the hammer just believes in itself).
As with so many things, I have no doubt that a happy medium of “do what feels right and call the close ones in the player’s favor” is the real solution here. So in an effort to find out what that point is for all of you, what do you say we practice the Dagger Test™ for today’s discussion? Name a scenario where you WOULD NOT allow a player to make a tool-based check with a simple dagger. All clear? Then I’ll see you down in the comments!
JOIN THE HANDBOOK OF HEROES DISCORD! Do you want a place to game with your fellow Heroes? How about a magical land where you can post your dankest nerd memes, behold the finest in gamer dog and geek cats, or speculate baselessly on Handbook of Heroes plot developments? Then have I got a Discord Invite for you!
I wouldn’t let them lockpick with a single dagger. Now, if they had two daggers, one a thin stiletto and the other a little hooked to use as a turning tool I would.
In a more serious answer, I’d almost certainly not let anyone make a tinker tool’s check with a dagger if it concerned some light (or not-so-light) magitech engineering. Dagger can doe a lot, but they can’t function as a wrench.
I’d totally let a lock be picked with a dagger depending on the situation. Like, in generic fantasy door, I’d honestly say that it’s not out of the realm of possibility to jam a dagger into the door jam, and raise the latch that way, and if a player came up with that I’d allow it. I’d probably make two DC’s one that opens clear and one that opens, but mars the door jam showing that entry occurred.
Also, as a person who always Carries a pocket knife for my job, sure knife can’t be wrench, but screwdriver? Scraper? Pry bar? Hammer.
Knife
Gooooood.
Great points though!
Exactly, it depends ont he type of lock, and in fact most “historical” locks of the medieval to renaissance period could be picked with a single piece of wire, or a stiletto, or a dagger. Frex, lifting a latch or door bar, jimmying slide lock, or even picking what today we’d call a “skeleton” lock.
Not allowed to do with a dagger ? Sure that sounds easy. What about… not, I could see it work. And if it was…? A bit slow, but doable. Hmm. That’s harder than it looks. Mainly because books and movies make everything look possible with a dagger. Things like tearing down a wall or digging a hole would take time, but still seem possible. Lockpicking sounds almost easy, with game logic.
… Err, you can’t scoop water with a dagger. Or, maybe more usefully, you can’t restore text or make a forgery.
In practice, my groups tend to just ignore tools, unless they’re explicitly required by the rules. Inventory management is already enough of a bother as it is, and it’s a thin line between making sure the players are prepared and playing accountants. The only thing we count is how many ropes that party has.
>> … Err, you can’t scoop water with a dagger
Incidentally, there’s an old saying that counter-insurgency is like eating soup with a knife – technically doable, but slow, messy and generally unpleasant even in success.
Glass-working. I don’t care *how* good with a dagger you are, you are not melting glass with it, and even if you could, trying to manipulate the molten glass with something as short as a dagger will burn your fingers off before you get anywhere (assuming they’ve got a big glob of glass on it, and not just a little bead at the tip).
Are there workarounds I would allow? Yes, but they all require *something* besides just the dagger.
I _did_ defuse some kind of magic contraption with a dagger once, with considerably more success than the wizard. He tried to use Arcana to drain the magic field, rolled a 1, and it blew up in his face. I used Thievery to poke it with a sharp piece of metal, rolled a 20, and it fell apart harmlessly. Wizard was irritated… though more at his dice than at me.
That said, I wouldn’t _generally_ allow a dagger as a tool at all, except maybe at disadvantage (for improvised tools) if it at least seems proximate, or maybe without if they’re proposing something suitably cinematic (i.e. Exalted stunts).
And remember, a dagger is a _piercing_ weapon, so while it may have an edge, it’s probably not a great cutting tool. Probably okay for medicine if that involves prying bullets or arrowheads out of flesh… not so much for performing an emergency appendectomy.
One of the daggers I own, a military issue one from some time ago and not a modern reproduction, has a very slim blade with a nasty point and razor sharp edges. I’d wager you could perform an appendectomy with it, or at least the opening and removal after tying off the appendix itself.
Closing might be a little tricky although you could use the tip to punch holes for sutures, that scar would be something to marvel at, probably worth a +1 CHA bonus 😉
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
“I would like to ‘clean up’ the crime scene with my dagger.”
Reminds me of Chaz the sword in Sluggy Freelance, and how depressed it got after being used as all sorts of unswordlike tools.
There’s a lot of tool based task I’d let people use a dagger for, through with a penalty for improvised tools (through generally I’d assume improvised tools also involve whatever random stuff can be easily grabbed from the current location… including stuff that can be grabbed after cutting it with a dagger).
Some stuff that couldn’t:
Typically a disguise check to appear as someone specific (if you are just trying to look like Not-Me-tm then shaving off hair and/or rearranging some clothes is definitely an option. Honestly shaving is going the extra mile).
Alchemy/herbalism checks to craft potions (at least on it’s own, a dagger could be part of improvised tools, but you really want something to boil stuff in).
I wouldn’t let a knife stand in for an improvised flute or string instrument for performance (through you could often juggle knives, or just sing, instead – depending on why you want to put on a performance).
If the player can’t come up with a reasonable way to do something with a dagger, no check for them. Even then, I might bump up the DC if there’s easier ways of going about it that have been made obvious.
The one exception is Inigo Montoya-style “guide my sword” survival checks to track. That’s just too funny not to let happen once or twice.
You do realize I’m going to do this now, right? Just wanted to let you know.
I usually won’t let them “pick” a lock with a dagger. Well, unless they rolled amazingly and then the whole “and your god loves you” bit applies. Depending on the door, I will allow them to BREAK the lock enough to get the door to open. My groups usually go for the hinges first though. I do allow rolls for using all sorts of implements in the wrong manner, mainly because the results tend to be some classic D&D session humor.
I also have the chance of your nice magic weapon going “BOOM” if used in a way that might damage it. So if you’re going to be going around sticking your +1 dagger into things it wasn’t made to stick into, you just might end up having it literally blow up in your face.
As much as I treat knives as multitool, Crafts that are not wood work and the lockpicking(you can use knife/dagger to make improvised lockpicks but by itself, yeah no) have been to me stuff you can’t use just a dagger, also for surgery unless the player mentions hheating the blade I will make the wound infected. If I’ve had to suffer a fewer because of something geting in the wound while having a knife accident so will every one in my fictional world. Also anythingbthatbI know requires specialised tools.
But yeah a good knife and good handler can do almost anything, trust me, my kinsmen are the ones with knife wielding lunatic onnthe stereotype card, and according to swedes, we always have one with us. I will neither deny nor confirm this claim.
For any task where a flat, pointy, 1 lb. piece of metal would do, I’d allow the PC to use a dagger. Once. Then, as an IRL Scoutmaster, I would take away the character’s Tote n Chip card for misusing their knife.
They can get their dagger back when they re-earn the certification.
https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/totin-chip/
It’s entirely possible to cut a rope with a hammer, depending on what you’re hitting it against and/or the shape of the hammer. A geologist’s hammer or the claws of a framing hammer will do the trick, the tauter the rope the better. A claw hammer also bends metal rods and flashing plus it strips wire in a pinch 😉
I probably wouldn’t let the lockpick example slide without a chance to break the dagger if used this way. I blame NetHack.
Trying to surpass a technological barrier is also probably a no; I might rule that the thing EXPLODES if the player tries it.
“I’d like to seduce the barmaid.”
“Ok… I’m gonna need you to put away the dagger though.”
Eep. Reminds me of a story, kicking around online somewhere, of the player who wanted to seduce an NPC and was asked to roll a Persuasion check.
“Can I use Intimidate instead?” the player asked, and then had no idea while his already-annoyed tablemates were giving him looks of disgust…
(In fairness, it sounds like the player had never bothered to figure out what either skill actually DID. He just knew that his Intimidation skill was higher than his Persuasion skill, and that if he asked to swap it in, the GM would sometimes say yes and sometimes no, for reasons he found inscrutable.)
I actually recall a player in one of the first games I ever ran, forty-plus years ago, with a similar tunnel-vision. He played a cleric and always asked if he could turn undead. Orcs. “Can I turn undead?” Bandits. “Can I turn undead?” Giant rats. “Can I turn undead?”
I felt bad saying no every time, so I gave them some skeletons to fight…and he didn’t ask. When I reminded him, he answered, “But these are DEAD.”
You know I said this as a joke, but I actually can imagine a scenario where you could use a dagger to seduce.
…
No not like that. I mean by performing a knife trick or something, impressing the target with your knife skills.
I have an inversion of Dagger Test, A player with almost every conceivable tool on their person. I was that player. I don’t remember circumstances but I do recall the GM gave up trying to ask if I had a tool because, within my carry capacity, I had bought just about every tool I could. Nothing like when the party is setting up camp and I was setting up a whole temporary workshop.
This is basically how I play D&D regardless of character. I spend the starting money on the basic stuff you have to have like armor and weapons and then I just spend all my money on gear until I’m almost (or actually) broke. As soon as I acquire money, the main goal is get everything I couldn’t buy at character creation until there are no tools or useful items left to buy. (And then it’s just clearing out every town of every potion, antivenom, etc. you can find.)
Can’t cook with just a dagger.
Can’t perform chemistry with just a dagger.
Can’t mint counterfeit coins with just a dagger.
Can’t tailor some new clothes with just a dagger.
On a more serious note, if a player can give me a reasonable way in which the tool can be used for the desired effect, I’ll usually let them try, but that DC is going to climb by a lot for using the wrong tool. We’re talking bare minimum +5 to DC for things that are reasonably accomplishable with the wrong tool (I.E. picking a crude lock, though it might be louder), and anything from +10 to +30 to the DC as we get further away from feasibility.
You can stir pots with a dagger and scoop out spices with the tip, I often use a knife for that IRL 😉
You can measure ingredients with a dagger just like spices, not every chemical is liquid, making black powder for example could be done with just a dagger.
You can make clothes using the dagger to cut the material out then the tip to punch holes for the thread/laces. Granted this works better for leather than silk but the concept is viable and the finer the point the finer the thread you could use.
DC would, of course, go up but it would never be infinite, and chiseling out the wood around a lockset can be easier than picking it sometimes 🙂
it’s been said that anything is possible with the exception of skiing through a revolving door, but it IS possible to ski through a turnstile which is technically a sort of revolving door.
“No, you can’t use your dagger as a grappling hook.”
“But what if…”
“Look, not only is not designed to get caught into anything, is small, thin and sharp, even if you get it caught somewhere strong enought to not fall with your weight either the blade is going to end up cutting the rope or your weight is goign to breake the blade.”
“Fair… Can I do it with a javelin?”
“You might try.”
Well… a javelin isn’t going to support a lot of weight if you just stick it into a wall, but if you tie the rope in the middle and manage to wedge the javelin behind two merlons (or rocks, or trees, etc.) or have it go through a small window, it might indeed work as a substitute grappling hook. Would the shaft be strong enough to resist the pull of medium-sized adventurer climbing in full gear is another question…
Running joke with some of my characters who are not at all rogue-ish is, “I attempt to pick the lock. With my weapon.” Usually a large hammer or axe.
Here’s Johnny!
Yeah, one of my old characters carried a “+5 adamantine lockpick” — which is to say, a heavily-enchanted two-handed maul, size Large.
One hit was generally enough to “open” any door not also made of adamantine… and it served as a pretty good multitool, at least for any problem that could be solved through the application of large amounts of bludgeoning damage. Maybe not a good choice for surgery.
This is why ALL of my characters, no matter what ruleset, no matter what class or playbook or archetype, ALWAYS has a dagger or knife as one of their first purchases at character creation!
At my table? If a problem can’t be solved by stabbing or cutting it, trying to solve it with a dagger is going to cause some combination of failure, injury, and damage to the dagger.
The interesting territory, I think, is problems which can be solved by cutting or stabbing, but which shouldn’t be solved that way.
Well, there’s always the “threaten someone until they solve the problem for you” solution…
As usual GURPS has Mr. Dagger-Is-The-Solution-For-Everything covered. Improvised tools penalty. If you don’t have the right tools, you get a penalty, the worse the tool is for the job, the worse the penalty.
And of course somethings an improvised tool simply cannot do. Surgery? Sure your knife can cut, but it cannot sew. Vehicular repair? Highly likely inappropriate unless you just need to cut a hose or a gasket or pry something apart (and destroy your knife in the process). Chainmail repair? Ahahahahahaha. Market evaluation? Play baseball? Stone cutting? Applying eyeliner?
Nah, there are tasks knives are perfect for, tasks they can be used for, and then plenty for which they are unsuitable.
Well you’re not going to have an easy time seeing things from far away with a dagger like you would a spyglass.
In reference to the Enchanted Forest Chronicles, I would not allow a bladed implement to do the dishes. Plumbing is fine though.
You see, that is why D&D sentient items can possess you.
I’d just like to confirm hammers can cut ropes. I’ve done it before, in real life. It’s less a matter of the hammer believing in itself and more one of positioning and having a properly damaged hammer, though.