Save or Die
You guys remember Laurel’s oracle? The one with the creepy Dark Tapestry powers who liked to heal his enemies? Well today’s comic is about him.
Dude’s name was Bridgen Lyralis, and he was all manner of unlucky. When the party found him he was wandering the halls of the megadungeon, bereft of memory and sanity. He was cursed to never reach the surface, his only companion a non-magical and equally frightened rabbit named Mr. Sandwich. Dude was plagued by periodic blackouts, voices from beyond the spheres, and a rampant case of (wholly justifiable) paranoia. He eventually retired from the party, became a kraken lich in thrall to THEM, and got dead’d by none other than Laurel’s replacement character. Not exactly the happiest character arc. Of course, none of that is why I call the character unlucky.
As a bad-touch cleric, Bridgen was all about the save-or-suck spells. I’m talking murderous command, feeblemind, and (thanks to some shenanigans involving the juju mystery) dominate person. Dude cranked his spell DCs through the roof, did his best to target weak saves, and in general made all the smart decisions when it comes to the save-or-suck playstyle. Unfortunately, the enemies always seemed to make those saves, and the frustration was very real.
If you’ve ever played such a character, you know how lame it can be when your target makes its save. You basically just spent your turn erasing a spell slot from your character sheet. By itself, that makes the experience worse than swinging and missing with a sword. Then there’s the in-game implications to consider. By failing to bend your target to your will, the fiction is saying “goblin dork #3 has greater willpower than me.” The very nature of saves means that you didn’t actually roll the die and miss. The target heroically resisted, placing them in the active role of the scenario. This all combines to mean that, even if your spell does what it’s supposed to do and single-handedly wins the combat a third of the time, the other 66% of play feels like absolute butts.
And so, as something of a swan song for Bridgen, I turn to you with this question of the day. If you’re going for a save-or-suck build, how do you cut down on the feels-bad? Is there a good way to debuff without setting yourself up for disappointment? Tell us all about your most epic mind-control moments and worst stretches of even-the-kobolds-save-against-my-spells bad luck down in the comments!
EDIT: For serious though you guys. If you want to vote on race and class for the new girl, it’s going to be the poll on Patreon this month. The “Quest Giver” tier and higher get to vote.
GET YOUR SCHWAG ON! Want a piece of Handbook-World to hang on you wall? Then you’ll want to check out the “Hero” reward tier on the The Handbook of Heroes Patreon. Each monthly treasure haul will bring you prints, decals, buttons, bookmarks and more! There’s even talk of a few Handbook-themed mini-dungeons on the horizon. So hit the link, open up that treasure chest, and see what loot awaits!
Have we seen the blue-haired lady with the spear before? I can’t seem to remember her, but she looks cool. ^_^
As for save-or-suck, that can get frustrating. I tend to avoid it, and if a spell does turn out to be a dud, I express some bad language and hope my fellow players can pick up the slack.
Of course, there is also the reverse: a desperate gamble paying off unexpectedly. Like when a young blue dragon was about to gore our party Barbarian to death, and my Goblin Wizard tagged it with an ear-piercing scream spell… and the big lizard started bleeding from the nose and ears and collapsed dead.
That spell is on my shit list. Not because it’s bad, but because I did a big dramatic speech about how everyone heard this god-awful sound… Only for the smug party wizard to belatedly inform me that the spell is only audible to the target.
https://tenor.com/view/chowder-radda-gif-10921075
She kinda looks like a Sylph to me. We’re still missing Air in the Handbook’s elemental portfolio, right? As for the class, how about Favored Soul? She could represent either edition wars in general, or more specifically the “conflict” between D&D Catholics and D&D Protestants. She and Oracle hate each other for reasons neither can explain. Upon seeing the duo Cleric is driven mad, screaming something about how they can’t both exist at the same time. Gunslinger’s pretending to be some obscure 3.5 class in hopes of getting Favored Soul to accept him.
i have to appreciate the Favored Soul still being a Pathfinder race rather than, say, an air genasi. Poor Cleric’s going to foam at the mouth with this one…
Is favored soul in Pathfinder? My google-fu is failing me.
It is not. There might be something similar, but I know it isn’t called favored soul
The Oracle is Pathfinder’s version of the Favored Soul.
Wait a minute… Didn’t we permanently kill off the last edition wars guy?
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/cessation-of-hostilities
I sort of assumed he was less “edition wars guy” and more “old school edition” guy. As in anything predating 3e, and preferably predating 2e as well. Then again, there was bound to be some overlap there. Anyway, are you saying that the holy war between the True Faith (as restored by the Great Prophet JJ) and those abhorrent Wizardists is not worth a character?!
And answering your other question, the Favored Soul in Pathfinder is called “Oracle” 🙂
Most epic control moments was when my character got an automaton follower from his Patron. Annie (as I named the automaton) got a net gun in her chest, which proved extremely handy against a young dragon who got restrained by it – and couldn’t make his DC 10 strength check for several rounds, effectively making the deadly fight into an easy gang up on poor dragon.
The second time I cleared the smile off my DM’s face was related to yet another dragon, a slightly bigger this time. The party was running all around, the dragon had some kobold helpers, one of which was lobbing some strange staff in their hand. When it came to my turn, the DM thought I have no real chance turning this fight around. Then I walked to a certain point at the map, and threw a fireball. Right at my feet. Oh, and I didn’t fail to mention I use my evoker ability to sculpt the spell and make sure me and my allies are exempt from the effects.
Almost all of the kobolds died, including the one who was about to run to the dragon with the Staff of Healing to heal them…
You gotta take advantage of that fly check, dragon-bro! Ain’t nobody wanna end up like Uchichi Draguto:
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/dragon-encounter
Shadow Dancer is a bit of „save or suck“ with the Shadow Call (Sp) „shadow conjuration 1/day“
I keep it as a „slow em down“ tactic, throwing a fake Stinking Cloud on mass encounters. This spreads the „suck“ chance around a bit and the „cloud“ part always works with those who haven’t entered the cloud.
the enemy approach as a group, enter as a smaller group as each thinks about it for a round or three, and they exit one by one.
Also fun is producing a „sepia snake sigil“ at no cost every day there was no encounter to use the spell on. Sure it’s only 1/5th chance of working with an extra save, but I can just leave a stash in a dungeon in case someone follows me.
spreads the „suck“ chance around a bit
Good call. Multi-target makes a big difference. It’s the single-target save or suck that tends to lead to feels-bad moments.
Something about lady blue hair, says Asimar to me. I think it’s the golden symbols next to her eyes.
Yeah, there’s definitely something celestial about her appearance.
Not sure of the class… some kind of spellcaster, I think. Not notably armored, somewhat decorative in appearance (e.g the silver belt) and the spear looks more like a staff than a functional weapon.
Celestial, at minimum. I look at her design and think “goddess”. Pretty useless goddess though.
Race-wise, the golden decorations on her eyes seem vaguely Egyptian/Osirian, which makes me think of Shabti. An elemental-blooded race (Suli, Undine, Sylph) would match the hair/eye color otherwise.
https://aonprd.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shabti
Kind of a Stargate feel, huh?
I dunno about race, but what about Magical Child Vigilante for the the class? Obviously just shortened to Magical Girl.
But we already had Horse Power doing the ‘magical transformation’ schtick. That archetype also needs a fancy familiar.
Would be amusing if this was actually Elf Princess, as a vigilante, in her combat persona (she puts more effort into disguises).
I’d like to add my support for the “Elf Princess combat persona” theory. It would definitely be amusing, particularly for the extra wrinkles it adds to the whole Horsepower/Lumberjack/Elf Princess love triangle.
Plus, this would explain why Elf Princess seems bored and snarky rather than actually scared when she gets kidnapped, since she’s only playing along to avoid breaking her cover, and why she was more concerned about Ninja than herself during that botched assassination attempt.
If that’s the case, she’s pretty committed to the bit: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/hostage-crisis
Ah, but we know that for a high-level PC getting impaled is only a mild inconvenience: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/light-stabbing
😉
We do kind of have that trope.
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/waiting-your-turn
Ya know… If you turn your head and squint.
Witches in 1e Pathfinder have quite a few tricks in their kit to make save-or-suck builds be less annoying (to them, at least – no advice on the DM side).
They have feats to effectively apply ‘metamagic’ for their hexes, letting those lucky saves have to try again, spread to another victim, and such.
Next, they have access to the spell Ill Omen, which forces targets (with no save allowed), to make one or more d20 rolls ‘with disadvantage’. Quickening this spell and then casting your kill-spells monstrously improves your odds of them working.
Finally, they have evil eye which lowers save values significantly, and is near-guaranteed to be applied long enough to do a kill-spell the following turn.
Combining all three usually gives you a potent 1-2 turn elimination of an enemy from combat.
Let’s not forget their most important tool:
https://media.tenor.com/images/7e40857d9070478484e049a61b844f28/tenor.gif
Damn, I’m embarrassed I forgot about that one.
The girl’s blue hair and blue eyes makes me think ‘Sylph’ or ‘Undine’ (air/water elemental ancestry) for race. If her other, unseen eye is a different color, it could also be a Changeling (daughter of a Hag).
As for the class, Arcanist (hybrid of Wizard/Sorcerer who combines good look with smarts), Shaman (hybrid of Oracle/Witch, a natural rival for Witch), Warpriest (who bonks with that staff), Medium (occult class that has ghosts inhabit/empower them, which can be very neat for comic shenanigans) or Psychic (like Sorcerer, but focusing on occult/psychic spells) are all good options.
Adding another race to the suggestions: Shabti. She can sport the Egyptian look, I feel, if her eye-decorations are any indication.
On a side note, was this new character planned by Colin’s original script, a new/whimsical/on-the-fly improvisation of Laurels, or a disagreement between writer and artist?
The script referred to the character as “random do-gooder.” I assumed it would be Paladin.
Witch should know better than to make her spells extra-evil and ominous looking.
Whilst this makes the seplls more effective against commoners, quaint villages, worthless minions, traitor henchmen and family members (yours or others), it makes the statistically less likely to affect do-gooder, plucky and heroic people.
It’s kind of like the visual version calling out your attacks or tempting fate. A simple, discreet spell (like a subtle charm) or a harmful missile (that follows the hero in case of dodgy types) works wonders when dealing with cinematic combat.
What’s the good of being a crazy-pants evilmancer if you can’t ham it up?
To answer the question. Don’t play 5th edition. Legendary Saves aside
If you have a gm that tailors monsters based around your super high dcs, don’t play one.
It really varies gm to gm. Some roll well. Some save well. Some crit like blender rogues.
But arguably its know your gm, his style, his dice luck, and if the Bad Touch style is going to be fun, or a ‘go do something else’ in combat.
There is no one answer right answer here. But shades of if its viable based on outside factors.
Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e are direct opposites as far as save-or-suck/die effects go.
2e has the degrees of success on saves, whilst 5e gives bosses (the ones you’d want to use such effects on) lair actions, legendary saves, or advantage on most saves. Not to mention any duration spells being easily disrupted via damage if they require concentration to be maintained. Applying disadvantage on the enemy somehow is your best bet.
And yeah, varies with DM. Some despise instant win spells and can ban such builds outright – which can also apply to monsters. There’s plenty of deadly encounters in Pathfinder simply due to being able to spam ‘save or die/lose’ effects (fear auras, confusion, domination, deaf effects) or opening up a PC to being coup’d to death (paralyzing ghouls, hold person).
Now I’m all nervous about this biz. I’ve got a mesmerist waiting in the wings for a Pathfinder game, and I have no idea what the GM’s luck stat might be.
Make sure to grab the thing that lets you whack undead with mind effects. You WILL need it eventually.
Also, ask the DM if they’re fine with you playing an ‘all-or-nothing’ spell user who can end combats with enchantment/domination/possession effects.
Planning to focus on the weird buffs aspect of the class. I’ve had too many “suddenly the encounter is over” moment with my mythic wizard to want a repeat of that biz, so I plan to be judicious with my “no one else gets to have fun” spell selection.
Pathfinder 2e actually did a good solution for the ‘does nothing on a save’ part, by adding ‘degrees of success’, splitting success/failure further into critical failure/success, creating four outcomes for any save-reliant effect.
With it, only the truly lucky/heroic can completely shrug off/ignore spells (critical success), with a good save merely mitigating or reducing the effect to be annoying. A failed save makes them suffer as normal, whilst a critical failure can truly screw them over, adding extra suck or die respectively.
So unless you’re plagued by nat20 rolls from your enemies, you still get some bang for your buck out of your debilitating spell effects.
The other option is to go for volume – utilizing save-or-suck effects that affect multiple creatures (and banking on at least one or two failing). Prismatic Spray, Color Spray, Confusion, Cloudkill, Black Tentacles and the like are good examples.
Degrees of success is a lovely bit of design space. Other games do it as well, but I appreciate how Pf2e tries to define what happens rather than leaving it as a vague “succeeds with complications” or “fails with advantage” situation. I’m running a complex encounter over here! Don’t make me make up every damn thing!
Just diversify the saving throws and hope you’re not up against a monk. I’m pretty sure you’re allowed to cry even when hit with stunning fist.
As for the new girl… everyone else is saying sylph and undine, but that’s what swash and buckle are.
I nominate her for Aphorite Eldritch Knight.
Swash and Buckle are a Triton and Dhampir, according to the commentary of their premiere comic. So Sylph/Undine are still viable.
To be fair, when I first saw them I assumed they were a Sylph and an Undine too.
That’s why I checked out what race they were when I suspected/suggested said races. :p
Well dang… I just saw them on the ocean and assumed sylph and undine… even had the reverse Gozreh thing going on. Oopsie.
Still, I stand by my choice for this comic. I kinda think that aphorites are underrated. And eldritch knights are pretty cool, right?
Actually, Swash and Buckle are…
*reads comments*
Ah. It’s sorted then. Cool. I’ll just show myself out.
So I’m coming from 5e and getting my first crack at pathfinder. I build my guy like I’m going to play 5e, needless to say he’s unoptimized. Combine that with being surrounded by pathfinder munchkins a wargamer “player vs the gm” GM and I picked a sorcerer. The enemies passed EVERY SINGLE SAVE I picked my spells around my strengths but I couldn’t touch anything. I ended up becoming a haste dispenser.
When that character finally died I built a arcanist with a spell pen that could touch gods, they’d still pass the save but at least it hit them.
Have you looked at the class guides? This mess is still my go-to when I’m trying to wrap my head around an unfamiliar Pathfinder class:
http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides.html
Here’s a controversial opinion, mystery girl’s race/class-wise… What if she didn’t have either?
That is to say, the player behind them decided to keep their character sheet a complete secret from the other players, only piping in the DM about it.
She’d represent the ‘note passing’ player who likes to reveal stuff about their backstory through natural RP, not letting other players learn about their PC until it’s backstory relevant or visibly apparent, letting them figure it out on their own.
And of course, they likely frustrate other PCs (or are frustrated by them) as they attempt to guess what their race/ancestry and build/class are, regularly being befuddled by the odd combinations of abilities she displays or wondering why she’s not doing X instead of Y.
It’ll never work. It’s too creative. 😛
At the moment “sylph occultist” is winning the poll, but who knows how it’ll end up?
This is why I mostly rely on support spells. Nothing’s worst than wasting a high level spell for nothing to happen. Support spells on the other hand rarely fail.
Recently one of my players had the misfortune of being a caster in the Nine Hells. Everything down there has advantage on saves vs spells. So any save or suck spell he casted failed miserably. I don’t think a single one of them worked successfully the entire campaign.
Sounds like hell.
Aha, punny!
“He eventually retired from the party, became a kraken lich”
A kraken lich? OK, now there is a story to tell.
Alright fine. Where are my session summaries…? Ah! Here we go. Ahem:
SESSION SUMMARY — Saturday, July 19th, 6 Erastus
“Release the Bridgen!”
As you stared out at The Unknown Temple, the shell game hit again. Daradrk’s harpoon was traded for the bow of Cayden Cailean, and so a party of Pinot, Noro, Theoden, and Kalja sailed out of the cave on the carpet of Trel-Ferer. It was not smooth sailing.
The waves at the mouth of the sea cave rose near to the roof, forcing you to skim low along the water. A scaled claw rose up to grasp at the carpet, and poor Reginald the kestrel could not quite steer clear. (This may or may not have been due to the fact that this dungeon was written for 3.5, which did not have a Fly skill, and so forced the poor bird to make a straight up Dex check.)
In any case, you fell into choppy waters with another couple of scags, and it was all you could do to get your butts back on the carpet and out of danger.
The Sea Caves: 19,200 XP
As you flew the short distance towards the temple, a mass of clouds gathered further out to sea, glowing ominously with distant lightning. The shapes of sharks swam ceaselessly beneath the waves, and the door of the temple seemed every bit as hungry.
As you touched down at the entryway, you could see that the temple had been hollowed out. It was now a great amphitheater looking down onto a floor of murky sea water. Only a narrow walkway and mezzanine still clung around the edges of the place. As you peered into the depths, glyphs on a set of nearby columns pulsed to life. As if in answer, the crystal skull in Pinot’s possession glowed brightly from within her pack. The thing that the temple had tried to summon could not come through, but dematerialized within the skull’s light. Instead, seven figures in hoods and cowls stepped from behind the columns. They spoke as one.
“What would you have of the Temple?”
They very nearly stank of malevolence, and the paladin Kalja knew without a doubt that they were evil. Yet these creatures spoke in conciliatory tones.
“We want the same thing, do we not?” they intoned. “We wish for the destruction of Metterak, and the failure of all his plans. You have served us well in this, and we have great hopes for your success. Go back to your work. Go back to the dungeon; your great quest for shiny trinkets. Grow rich and fat with power. There is nothing for you here.”
But you had not come for gold or power. You had come for knowledge.
“Why do we teleport throughout the dungeon?” you asked.
You had come for friendship.
“What do you know of the half-elf Bridgen? Is he your prisoner?”
But you received no answers. The thunder of the storm growled in the distance. And with a snap, the seven figures tore a column from its foundations, wielding it by some strange magic above their heads like an enormous flail. The combat was swift and brutal, but only Noro really saw it. Within his true sight, the figures became the seven legs of a single misshapen horror. The column-flail whirled about their heads not by magic, but on the end of a thick rope of silk. The leng spider vanished in a hail of arrow fire and magic, and there was nothing left to bar your way.
The Temple Priests: 9,600 XP
You hugged the walls of the shell of the temple, feeling unsettlingly like you were exploring the inside of an egg that had cracked open. The grasping, tentacular hallways were broken and still, but that was not the only change. More of that crude writing you’d seen in the sea caves had been gouged into the stone here:
“Oh gods. The tunnels. They won’t see it. They won’t guess in time.”
Passing from this ominous message, you came soon to the “sanctification chamber.” The glyphs on the doors still read, “Beyond the doors lies the purification of change.” But this place too was broken. The pipes that emanated from the ceiling were shorn in half, and now dripped some hideous flux into the sea. Some of this offal actually coagulated and sloughed its way toward you, and you suddenly had a good idea where the chaos beasts in the pits of the menagerie of winds came from. What might exposure to such a thing do to a person? What might they become? ‘Purification of change’ indeed.
You casually obliterated the beast…
Chaos Beast: 800 XP
…Then rose to the second level of the complex. There you found a toppled statue. It was the remains of the shark-headed golem that once attacked you so long ago upon Khorant. However, the shark head had been decapitated. In its place was a pearl of enormous size. It pulsed with necrotic energy. And that seemed to summon something’s attention.
The watery floor of the Temple boiled. The smell of death rose with it. Rain began to fall as the storm broke overhead, and the undead kraken loomed over you.
“Hello Bridgen,” said Noro. “How long have you been a kraken?”
The rotting thing unfolded itself then. And in the space where a sane creature ought to have hid its beak, the upper body of Bridgen protruded like some obscene growth. This apparition raised its head weakly. And in its tired, reedy voice it asked the same question Noro and Tunskalan had faced in that first cave: “Are you supplicants to the sea god?”
When you did not answer, the thing that had been Bridgen continued: “Visitors are not permitted. No… That is not right… I am not permitted visitors.” The rain fell harder, and Bridgen lifted his lank hair against the damp. He blinked up at the sky, seeming not to see you.
“They are not here just now,” he said. “They do leave me sometimes. You see, they already know everything I know. What more use could I be? Again and again they scoured my mind. No stone unturned.” Bridgen seemed to come more fully to himself as he spoke. His tentacles lashed. His eyes fell upon the party, and there was a small kernel of sanity amidst the madness. “You are their great hope you know. For they desire her power. Dragons and demons and the things that dwell beyond the spheres… Beneath the waves… Who would not? Who would not take the power of a god?”
“What can we do?” you asked. “How can we help you?”
The rain fell. The lightning struck. Amidst the torrent of the storm, the thing that had been Bridgen whispered, “Please… end it. Please….”
He gestured towards the pearl, and in an intuitive leap Noro understood. Every lich needs a phylactery, and this enormous gemstone would serve the purpose. The witch raised a hand, mumbled a few words, pointed…. The disintegrate spell did its work. The pearl fell to dust. And yet, Bridgen remained. For it is not enough to destroy a lich’s phylactery. The physical form too had to be slain.
The wind picked up. The sky opened wide into the full fury of the storm. “They’ve found me!” cried Bridgen. “They are here!” And then Bridgen was gone. In his place a flailing horror of the deep, grasping madly after the people he had once called friends.
Again and again the tentacles struck, pulling you from your perch atop the carpet and down into the depths. Had it not been for Pinot and her facility with teleportation magic, who can say how the day might have ended? She managed to give you just enough time to turn the battle, plucking Bridgen’s victims from his tentacular grasp. Theoden once again cast control water, exposing the kraken lich to the full fury of Kalja’s arrows. It was one of these that struck through the half-elf’s heart.
Bridgen: 76,800 XP
You glided down to your fallen friend amidst the rain and ruin. You said what words you could, praying for the rest of a tormented soul. But as the waters began to rise once more, and as the storm lashed in its fury, there was scant comfort to be found. You let the sea reclaim its dead, teleporting home upon your carpet and leaving that unholy place behind. Only the words remained, a last message carved into the floor beneath the shattered pearl: “I miss Mr. Sandwich.”
TOTAL XP: 106,400
(Mr. Sandwich was Bridgen’s service animal… A mundane white rabbit that he’d kept throughout his adventures. The bunny still lives in a hutch back at the party’s HQ.)
And THIS is why I always rank save or die spells so low. Anything you’d actually want to hit with the spell will basically be impossible to hit with the spell.
It is funny when you hit the goblins and weak-minded mooks though.
My usual strategy for my arcanist in my FFXIV pathfinder game is to mix up two strategies: prioritize save-and-suck spells so even a save guarantees some minor benefit, and have a meatshield between me and the enemy in case I flub.
I also make sure to always have at least a few spells without spell resistance! It’s nice to be able to just drop things into pits when you don’t feel like dealing with them.
Getting around SR really ought to be its own comic.
It’s on my mind because my group just hit level 18 of their megadungeon last session. The first encounter was a room full of a dozen iron golems (a CR 20 encounter).
The party played it smart, dropping a pair of walls of force at the door and funneling the golems into a kill box. They filled this cattle chute with two arcane cannons, a pair of acid pits, and a hilariously effective grease spell. As the GM in this situation, I couldn’t have been prouder of their tactical acumen. All of it bypassed SR easily.
The way magic works in 3e/3.5/Pathfinder is something I probably have the most house rules around and it’s exactly for things like the mechanical function of these all or nothing effects. A well built melee character can dominate the battlefield in ways casters can’t even compete with.
The biggest problem is the Fort Save. You have any idea how many ooky bad magic things target Fort? How many of them would be super great to get off on Krulthor the Gigaorc Champion, who’s presently chopping your front line into kibble? ALL OF THEM! …holy shit, Krulthor’s Fort save is WHAT? He has HOW MUCH CON!? Well, save vs Will!
And then Krulthor throws a 20 and heroically resists your stupid ray. Uh oh. That got his attention. He acrobatics through your frontline! ALL THE DAMAGE! Bad end.
I feel Pathfinder overly punishes casters without good reason for it. I never once saw the abusive stuff with 3e wizards people used to whine about because I never saw a Wizard survive past 8th level. And I think that the rules for how saves and the like function need to fundamentally favor the player’s offensive casting. So I throw in more, but somewhat less capable enemies.
There’s a lot to encounter balance, and I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about how to make the inherent risk of casting those save or suck spells better. But also… save or ‘suck’ is one thing. Save or die are the sorts of spells I least appreciate, and I’m not sure what I want to do about them yet.
8th level is more or less where the balance shifts. It’s about that time that the quadratic wizard catches up to the linear warrior. Once that happens, the grab bag of spells begins to dominate play.
My own mythic wizard should have died around 8th level, but some lenient usage of hero points allowed him to linger on. After that the nerf bats came out to make crafting and then the dazing metamagic less dominating. YMMV I guess, but I don’t think the imbalance is something that happens much in the single-digit levels.
Generally, I would go with Save or X effects that have a lesser effect on a failed save, or has an extra effect to the party’s benefit (Nauseating Cloud when the party has means to see through magical fog, for example). Stacking a couple of attack roll spells isn’t a bad policy either; Save or X effects work out to be better most of the time, but for when you have an enemy that’s on a hot streak of rolls with a high save bonus, it’s good to break out the old stand-by, or find another avenue of attack altogether (Black Tentacles is a strong control spell against anything humanoid or of particularly small size).
Breaking away from save or x spells, there’s also going the opposite route to achieve the same goal- buffing allies to the gills with haste and heroism and the like. Buffs are almost always relevant and become a good use for your actions if something is proving stupidly resilient due to bad luck. Then there’s a couple of effects that can be best described as ‘no save, just x’- Wall of Force around a martial enemy, for example.
Still, there’s always going to be times when foes get lucky rolls outside of the bell curve. A 2e game I’m in has without fail had every single encounter over the past few levels be a game of waiting for the party to roll a double digit on the die and praying the enemy rolls lower than 15 on it this time, a complete statistical anomaly, and it’s frustrating for both sides of the screen. When all else fails, sometimes you gotta shrug, smile, take a deep breath, and remind yourself it’s just the nature of the game… or start spamming Magic Missile.
Save-to-lesser-effect always struck me as smart design. At my own tables, that’s most often been evil eye:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/hexes/common-hexes/hex-evil-eye-su/
Build: lots of dex save spells.
Enemies: ninjas (with evasion)
🙁
every. freaking. time.
Looks like a Sylph to me. As for the class I’d say either a Dragoon Fighter if we’re talking archetypes or a Battle Herald if we’re talking Prestige Classes. In the later case the Bard Magic justifies her lack of heavy armour despite having Cavalier levels.
If dragoon wins the poll, we’re going full final fantasy with this thing.
As for the spells, Vaarsuvius vs the black dragon. The elf knew his spells would fail but there was also the chance of the dragon to fumble the roll, so they keep casting the same spell until it worked 🙂
As for the girl, Human with water Genasi and Aasimar ancestries, not bonus features but plot hooks. I am very torn between Warpriest of a good god, she wants to be useless, that there be peace but recognize that until that day comes she is there to fight the night and protect the light; and Occultist using a heavenly lance to get some cleric spells and so saying that is her class to not get in trouble because she does want to help people but they may be afraid of her real class 🙂
Sounds like my party vs. the medusa level. Fight enough of ’em and, even with just a 5% chance, you’re eventually going to be a rock.
Adventurers rocks, medusas says 😛
This is why I like PF2e’s system of Crit Fail / Fail / Success / Crit Success, instead of a binary pass/fail. To address the issue of save-or-suck spells themselves… well, I just never take them if they’re single-target. Party buff, battlefield control, and area denial spells are going to do something regardless, and then things like Fear and Hypnotic Pattern that target multiple enemies are most likely going to stick to something.
Reason #256 why I’d like to give PF2e a shot.
Or, alternatively:
“Does a 25 pass?”
DM: “No.”
“Well how about a 26? Oh wait, I forgot my totally-not-made-up bonus. It’s a 27.”
unrelated to the prompt, but I was wondering if you could please share your megadungeon with me, because it sounds really cool and I would love to run my players through it. If the campaign notes are posted somewhere, or really anything like that, that would be awesome of you. It’s fine if you can’t, I’ll understand, just thought I would ask.
Sadly, Dragon’s Delve is now defunct. Designed as a subscription service website, it is impossible to get the original experience as it was intended. After Monte Cook sold it to a third party (who then ran a Kickstarter that promised to convert it from 3.5 to Pathfinder and never did), it hung on for another half a year before going dark.
I do have the PDFs (which is what I’m still working off of), but I certainly wouldn’t encourage you to reach out to me on the Handbook’s social media sites for access.
Alright, I sent you a message on Facebook. Thanks!
I certainly wouldn’t have replied to such a message, even if it had been sent! >_>
She seemed like a Cavalier to me. Maybe Aasimnar.
Save or Suck can be SO fun when it works, but let me tell you, there’s nothing quite like using Hold Person on a fleeing presumed-assassin that nobody else has noticed as the first spell of the campaign, getting saved against, and having to go haring off across the city, dead-last in the chase scene because you’ve only got a 20ft move speed and your party is full of people who are rogues, have 35 speed, or both.
I took off my too-heavy armor after that, and learned to always check for strength requirements when picking starting equipment
Would this kraken lich you mentioned perhaps be the same one with the beak attack reflavored as inflict wounds? Or have there somehow been two kraken liches in your games?
That would be the same kraken lich.
No mind control, but when every single enemy in a fireball turns out to have evasion and also makes their save, it made me pretty goddamn silly for spending the spell and a use of the rod of maximize.
I think I told this story once upon a time, but the first time I fought a helmed horror in 5e…
https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=helmed-horror
I was playing my chain pact warlock. I damn near had an apoplexy.
“Eldritch blast!”
“It’s immune to force damage.”
“What about the necrotic damage from hex?”
“That too.”
“OK then. For my next turn I’ll order my imp to sting it.”
“Immune to poison damage.”
“Fuck it! Fireball!”
“It’s specifically immune to fireball.”
“I WILL BLUDGEON YOU WITH MY DICE BAG!”
“Hmmm… That appears to get through its defenses.”
“ARGHLBRGLE!”
Ugh… That’s an unfortunate combination of immunities. Against the wrong party, that would hit far harder than its CR of 4.
Hmm… That makes me wonder, what if a DM were to have a BBEG craft a set of these to go against the players, with each one having immunity to the three most commonly used spells that an individual player would use (BBEG might know from scrying and spying on the party), and the BBEG acting in support? That would either be awesome or make the players want to kill the DM.
What about “ARGHLBRGLE!” did you not understand? 😛
🙂
It’s fun to get that reaction once in a while (though frustrating players is definitely not a smart move). Plus, if they’re smart, they’ll switch targets and then it’ll be a cakewalk for a midlevel party.
I generally play with an armistice of ‘if you don’t use save-or-sucks, I won’t’ but with Pathfinder 2nd HARD nerfing Save-Or-Sucks, I’ve found they feel way less bad to play against and with. Degrees of Success as a mechanic keeps them relevant without being gamebreaking:
Example: In pathfinder 1st edition, a medusa’s gaze is DC16. If you fail it, you get petrified.
In pathfinder 2nd edition, a medusa’s gaze is an aura with a DC of ~20. If you fail it, you get Slowed 1, meaning you have 1 less action on your turns. If you fail by more than 10 (or roll a hard 1) you’re slowed 2, limiting you to 1 action on each turn. If you’ve already been slowed by the effect, she can spend an action on her turn to focus her gaze on you and force you to save again. Fail that one and you get petrified.
Spells generally work the same way. Feeblemind, in particular, now inflicts a NASTY status effect (Stupefied 4, which is -4 to all mental skills and a DC9 flat check with every spell cast or you lose the spell) but only actually feebleminds you on a critical failure.
Additionally, save-or-sucks generally now have the Incapacitate trait, which makes creatures of a higher level than the user have a VERY significant bonus against it (their save is automatically one step better, critfail->fail->success->crit success) This prevents like, level 7 wizards from throwing Feebleminds at The Lich Lord (Legally Distinct from any other undead royalty) until he eventually rolls a hard 1.
But, to keep them from being super feels-bad, most of these spells still do something even if the save is passed. Paralyze still takes an action even if you succeed on the save, you just don’t get fully paralyzed. In a way, a lot more spells work like aoe spells in other editions with their save-for-half.
I like this as a way out of the pass/fail binary. I feel like 5e options to “set up” for the playstyle work OK (hex and mind sliver spring to mind), but that feels more like a patch than a system-wide overhaul.
Degrees of Success as a system is REALLY nice. it rewards stacking a lot of attack bonus or ac- If you’re a level 20 champion in full plate, and some random goblin with a dagger runs screaming at you and rolls a 20- he still misses, because his attack was probably so below your AC that even with the hard 20 increasing his success step by 1, it still missed.
For race, she has a bit of a sea elemental feel to her in my opinion, though celestial would work as well; class ought to be something divine-related, favoured soul perhaps
I dunno. Favored Soul feels pretty close Oracle. And like the man said…
https://adexchanger.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/weve-already-got-one.jpg
IMO at high enough levels the spell effect should have some downside for the target even on a save.
We use the Legendary classes from Legendary games, so we have class abilities and feats that can impose some sort of negative consequence even on a save, like taking half damage or imposing a penalty for something.
Well those sound like interesting mechanics. Any chance of a link to the relevant Legendary games rules?
Reminds me of this one battle in my last group. The spellcaster, not sure what class he was, got separated from everyone else and ended up in combat with a dragon. But the dragon couldn’t get to him in melee or even its breath weapon. So it started tossing spells at him. And he started tossing spells at the dragon. ALL the spells were ‘Save or suck’ from both sides. Basically, it was a case of the first to fail a save loses. Took about 30 minutes irl for that to happen. It was kinda hilarious.
Seems like legendary resistance would be a big help in that situation. Advantage dragon (assuming we’re talking 5e).
Pathfinder. I’m sure the dragon had spell resistance, don’t know what the spellcaster had in his defenses. But none of that matters when the dice keep rolling high.
Hmm, for extra insult to injury, I vote the new girl is a Spellthief, so that by passing the save she has also just stolen the spell from Witch!
As for saves, I tend to favor save-or-sucks over save-or-dies, not least because they tend to force multiple saves, whether by being an AOE like shades or being bolted onto a full attack like Staggering Strike or Noxious Blast Eldritch Glaive.
It also helps that I tend to expect being unlucky, so I build around that with abilities like Elven Accuracy in 4E and Fatespinner in 3.5, and preferring powers that have a partial effect on a passed save (like 5E’s dissonant whispers) or just don’t allow a save at all (3.5’s Fell Frighten).
Once upon a time I tried to theorycraft a character that could deliver the greatest possible number of debuffs with a single punch. I think it was a 3.5 monk, but I can’t for the life of me remember what I was doing beyond monk/cleric.
I really wanted to say Samsaran due to their cool lore but it doesn’t fit the aesthetic. What about a Shabti, Aphorite or Android. Each have some pretty serious lore to draw upon.
For Class I’d say Warpriest fits the established aesthetic but a Shaman or Occultist would fit well with the races I suggested.
My favorite due to irony in this case has to be the Mesmerist though, a mention of the Sapped Magic stare later on would be a good explanation of why New Character has such good saves. In addition the Cult Master archetype could allow for a very cult of personality or political character, while the Gaslighter doubles down on the infuriating nature displayed in the comic.
Why you gotta make me search for made up sounding stuff? The Googles were friggig’ positive that I wanted to know about “Aphrodite.”
I’m gonna go with Arcane Sorcerer/Lore Oracle into Mystic Theurge, as we never see enough pathfinder Prestige classes. She’s just wielding her arcane bonded wacking stick to cast another arcane spell if she needs it.
Plus you get the doubled will saves from going Sorcerer and Orcale so she can totally ignore whatever save or sucks that get tossed at her.
As for Race, given the little golden glow on her face around her eyes and her blue hair I’m gonna go with Android. Cause its weird ^_^
No doubt Street Samurai would be thrilled.
Adding to the chain of enjoying how PF2E handled this with degrees of success. Even if you don’t get the “die” part of a save-or-die, you generally at least get something rather than wasting your actions/spell slot.
That said, there is still always the disappointment of never managing to land the insta-death part of your Phantasmal Killer spell – which in 1e required the target to fail two saves, but in 2e now requires them to critically fail the first save in addition to failing the second save (with the incapacitation trait added for extra insurance to prevent a lucky shot from insta-killing a boss). While the 2e version guarantees a decent bit of mental damage + the frightened condition on anything but a critical success, it still is hard to not bet on the low odds for how satisfying it’d be.
For how to help with this – I personally suggest inflicting save debuffs alongside with using the spell more frequently. While it is always tempting to have that epic moment of one-shotting a big boss – trying to save the spell for only the perfect situation results in less rolls and less chances to succeed. So instead of of saving it for the best occasion, use it to delete something either 1) the martial can’t kill in a single attack but is still annoying, or 2) anything that’d distract the martial from focusing on the “boss” style threat. While it might not be quite as satisfying as getting the low odds to one-shot the boss, it can be very effective to gimp a boss by taking out their support before it gets a chance to contribute since the support almost always has much much lower saves.
Same deal with never critting for 80d6 with disintegrate. The potential is there, but it always feels like consolation prize damage when it inevitably fails to happen.
I quite like the notion of “focus adds” for debuffers. It’s more satisfying to let your sword mans get into an epic duel anyway. You’re just there as a sword man delivery system and troubleshooter.
At least in Pathfinder, I really like the metamagic feat bouncing spell for my SoS casters. For just one spell level increase (which can obviously be mitigated in a number of ways), you get to try your SoS spell on a second target if the first succeeds their save.
Less useful for bosses, but handy for multiple enemies.
For me it was dazing metamagic on ball lighting. My GM nerfed that one tout de suite.
My last PF DM had a bad habit of never rolling saves in public. Learned pretty fast that “save or suck” in their game was just “waste of my turn”, felt real bad to have access to good spells that invariably did worse than nothing.
I like to mix it up with the “secret save” business. The important ones are made in front of the group, while the REALLY important ones go behind the screen. 😛
Man, elliot the unlucky had such a bad time with this, my dm would always roll amazingly, to the extent that we could all accurately just predict that the enemy would make the save. The biggest incidence was probably when i was hitting a group of 6 trolls with hypnotic pattern, with all of them needing a 18 or 19 to pass, and then they all did. The dm was rolling on the table for this too. Elliots run from around level 1 to 10 was like this alot, though the bad luck faded somewhat after level 10