Scangry
There’s no power fantasy so pure as the barbarian. You are a creature of fury and might. Your muscles bulge. Your steel gleams. Dio songs start playing when you strut into the room. But then it happens: You see a spooky ghost. One failed save later and the power fantasy evaporates. Suddenly your indomitable wall of man-muscle is leaving piss streaks all the way back to the dungeon entrance.
It’s not supposed to be this way.
Some versions of the class seem to acknowledge this weirdness. 5e gives us the Path of the Berserker, with its immune-to-frightened ability mindless rage. Over in Pathfinder 1e, you get a +2 morale bonus on Will saves even during vanilla rage. The image of the indomitable warrior is so baked into adventure fantasy gaming that paladins get fear immunity, and even basic-ass fighters get bravery. So why should my badass, fights-to-the-last, would-never-abandon-an-ally-in-battle berserker become a wimp at the sight of spooky scary etc.?
The real issue here isn’t in mechanics. It’s in the “class fantasy” attached to the image of the warrior. We’ve all seen unflappable fighters on page and screen. Geralt of Rivia never flinches. Arwen defies the Ringwraiths. And that’s the expectation when you show up to play a tough-guy class. That’s also why you tend to catch flack from your buddies when the halfling bard stands his ground while your armored hulk hides behind a rock.
Speaking personally, I think the solution might lie in recalibrated expectations. We all want our fighters to be tough, our wizards to be clever, and our rangers to shoot straight. The dice sometimes have other ideas. And that reality means my character concepts need be flexible enough to accommodate those embarrassing screwups.
What do the rest of you guys think though? Are you on board with my “accept your imperfections” suggestion? Or is there a mechanical solution to the failed class fantasy of the fearless warrior? Sound off with your own take on sudden-onset-gutlessness down in the comments!
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As a DM who *loathes* things that take away player control over the actions and expressions of a character, this is the way I’ve handled the situation whenever it comes up:
How you react in a situation that forces a mental state like fear, charm, ect upon you is unknown until the first time it happens. Once it happens though, you get to choose the way you react to it. The key however is that it is then locked in stone that this is the way your character reacts to such situations going forwards.
For example: if the barbarian facing the ghost gets hit with fear, they can decide “In my sudden panic, I answer the old ‘fight or flight’ question with a swing of my axe. There is no friend, no foe, only threats around me that won’t stop being threats until they’re no longer capable of moving”. That’s fine, and you can go to town on the ghost. But now, if later on a lich casts Fear on the barbarian while they’re still in the middle of their party, they’ve gotta start swinging at the friends right next to them. They’ve already established they respond to fear spells with blind aggressive panic, after all.
That’s really cool, I might try that in my next game. Thanks!
So what do you do when the player effectively neuters the ability? “Okay, since I’m afraid of this one ghost, I simply fight through the fear and focus it down with steely determination.”
I think Spuddnik is taking the same stance I did back here:
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/prince-charming
Fear mechanics tend to be less open ended than charm effects though. They have concrete mechanics attached, which is why I’m less inclined to adopt the strategy. I understand the impulse though.
If you trust your players to RP self-penalization, they might surprise you with their creativity. Whether that chance is worth the risk of cheese like you describe… That’s calculus for an individual GM, IMHO.
a lot depends on if we want DnD to be a tactical skirmish game or a more dramatic fantasy roleplaying game.
as a tactical skirmish game fear works fine as is, it’s battlefield control, it’s a way to move characters around the battlefield, gotta keep the caster out of melee, sure it falls down a bit when it comes to fluff, but it’s fine if we accept that once (grid) combat starts we’re playing a skirmish game, not doing freeform roleplay
if we want DnD the dramatic fantasy Roleplaying game, Fear needs a different implementation, massive bonus to intimidation checks or something of that ilk
of course, you can implement both, providing a noncombat or a combat implementation where an ability lacks one or the other, but that kinda turns grid combat into a totally separate game that just happens to use the same stats as the rest of the game, but people might not like that
As a DM, I don’t use fear effects altogether. If the monster has an ability that inflicts fear, I’ll replace it with something else, like a paralysis or slow effect instead. I trust my players to respond in character to the horrifying monster. If that means they quip flippantly and charge in, it’s my job to make them regret it. I don’t like telling characters what they feel because that treads perilously close to negating their idea of their character.
Note: the one exception is dragons. Dragonfear is too fun a trope not to include, and reinforces the theme that dragons are absolutely terrifying.
Once I was putting in some haunts into a Pathfinder game, and I discovered that half of the low-level ones are effectively “Will save or be afraid/run away in fear for a little bit.” I hated that, not because it was attacking character agency or whatever, but because that was essentially a hazard that has no effect (unless you add something else into the environment that would cause the panic to have actual consequences).
Oof that is rough. Another very valid reason to ditch fear for something (anything) else
Yeah, supernatural fear is a clumsy mechanic, and one which rarely comes up in our games because of that.
Given that I play exclusively with close friends, the approach I’d take if I *did* use it would probably be to just tell the players that their character is under the effects of supernatural fear, and leave it to them to act accordingly. No enforced mechanical penalty, but trusting them to either penalise themselves through their choice of actions, or to dramatically push on through their fear. Either way, it’s going to be more interesting than just having everyone run screaming back down the corridor…
You know the common saying fight or flight? Well that makes me believe that emotion-wise, rage would effectively be on the opposite end fear, if it were a spectrum. Pathfinder 1e has various stages of fear as a condition. What if, we took it further, and gave various stages of rage as a condition; in the center between fear and rage would be calm.
Example: Panicked > Frightened > Shaken > Calm < Angry < Rage < Wrath.
There could be additional steps, Wrath for example is just a placeholder, for what comes after Wrath. Point is, Barbarian's Rage, and similar effects would move your emotion 2 steps to the right, while a fear spell would move you two steps to the left. A calm emotions spell would reset you 2 steps closer to the center.
This isn't something that I have incorporated into my games, merely something I am thinking about now.
I don’t have a problem with the mechanics as they stand. I think the real issue with Barbarian is that she’s a victim of the tropes incrementally piled on her class. At the end of the day, the Pathfinder Barbarian (to use one example) “can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity,” but it’s not this mindless, unreachable rage. It’s something she consciously summons and can dismiss with a thought. While she’s in this “zone,” she is more resistant to Will-related effects, in general, but not immune to them… and that’s probably just fine. In fact, it’s better than what Fighter gets in Pathfinder, which is a bonus specifically just against fear effects—to reflect becoming more stalwart as he gains experience.
I think all that contrasts nicely against the immunity Paladin gets against fear (and, eventually, charms and compulsions), because members his class aren’t meant to be “merely” exceptional, but exemplars in their own right.
One of the things I like about 5e fear; while it makes you less effective, and doesn’t let you move towards your object of spookiness, it doesn’t make you run away. So when I describe fear to players, it isn’t the blind panic; it’s the cold dread that sinks into your gut and saps your strength. The barbarian can channel his anger to fight on through that fear (ie, use advantage to counter disadvantage); and the other classes have their own mentioned ways of dealing. As for the hanging back, just remember every scene where the heroes stand incomprehensibly fixed in place while the big bad monologues and finishes his ritual. Fear auras, man.
I’m of the opinion that the when the dice suck, they suck.
Be that as it may, I recognize that my buddies have gotten together to have a good time, and part of that is having a fun narrative to tell after it’s all said and done.
That’s why everyone gets a red glass bead at the start of every session. (I’ve heard ’em called Action Points, Victory Points, Chaos Currency…) It can be spent to gain Advantage on a roll, prompt a reroll, or just make a minor tweak to the narrative, if possible (“Is there, by any chance, a ‘self-destruct’ button clearly labeled on the mad scientist’s Inator?” –slides a bead toward the DM with a hopeful expression.)
The player can always win an additional bead for good gameplay, clever and unexpected solutions, or even rolling a NAT 20 (when I’m feeling generous), but the points don’t carry over to the next session. Veteran players at our table are quick to caution newcomers to save those beads until it’s *really* important. Nothing worse than spending an AP to retry something minor, only to beat Shag and Scoob back to the Mystery Machine when things get intense, just because you have no more beads left to spend.
https://giphy.com/gifs/disneyplus-star-wars-starwars-the-book-of-boba-fett-6UFgdU9hirj1pAOJyN
The classic Barbarian weakness is mental attacks, I’m fine with that. I like distinct strengths and weaknesses.
A lot of it comes down to flavour, which I’m careful to manage as a DM. When my players are at low levels, just starting out as adventurers, and the dice determine that they fail at something, I’ll generally describe them tripping over themselves, freezing in the heat of combat, generally being not so great at their jobs. At higher levels, though, I’ll slip away from that and describe how the baddies were able to evade their blows, and how their best simply wasn’t good enough. It keeps them feeling competent even when they’re clearly not.
Fear is similar. I might describe ordinary, you-piss-yourself fear at an early level, but as the monsters and players get stronger, I might call supernatural fear a psychic assault upon the mind that physically prevents movement.
Of course, one time I had a bunch of characters roll for fear against a “ghost” that turned out to be a sheet on a broomstick. Two failed. You gotta get your laughs in when you can.
“One failed save later and the power fantasy evaporates.”
If the power fantasy survived to that point, I’m in the wrong group. Not that I have a problem with power fantasies. But if I’m working with a group of people who want absolute agency over their characters and for nothing to interfere with their freeform role-play, then what we really have is a writers’ room, and the dice and rulebooks go back on the shelf and we create a fun story. (I’ve done this many times before, and it’s a blast.)
Power fantasies and vicarious wish-fulfillment are fine, but they’re not really the province of a game, because “play to find out what happens” more or less **requires** that the players can’t be in absolute control of **everything**. So when that’s what people are really after, I suggest that the group just roll with that. And if someone turns out to lack the maturity to play well with others under those circumstances, then there’s always a door for them to walk out of.
It seems that once again, the transcript box has deceived you.
Argh!
How does this keep happening!?
It can’t keep getting away with this! D:
In Ars Magica, you can define your character’s, well, character freely by adding like three or four personality traits with a score between -3 and +3.
These can be anything you want, really. Patient, curious, temperamental, etc.
And so you can get to apply the scores that apply, if any, as a bonus or a penalty to your rolls when appropriate. So if your character is Fearless, that will give you a bonus to resist fear effects, but at the same time, it can be a penalty when trying to convince the GM that of course your character didn’t forget to pack a 10-ft. pole…
I definitely think there’s room for interpretation on the exact function of the higher levels of fear.
While I definitely think a caster or rogue’s fear response logically can be ‘run away from the immediate danger’ I think paladins, barbarians, and similar classes thrive on the idea that their fear response is ‘END THE THREAT NOW.’
As an example (though not a fear-related one), as written, Feeblemind reduces the victim to base animal instincts, capable of nothing more than the basic necessities of survival
My barbarian happens to get hit with this during a boss fight. She flubs her save, because I rolled a 1 (and passed on a 2 or higher…) and as such, is effectively braindead
It gets around to my turn again, and the gm just kinda shrugs. “I mean, I don’t see why you wouldn’t just keep attacking as you were before.” And lets me continue to play as normal, except with no access to int/wis/charisma based skills.
The *problem* came after the fight ended, when the party realized that I didn’t have enough presence of mind to realize that it *had* ended. So they had to put me in the time-out box (read: a wall of stone that boxed me into the corner of the room) while my rage ran the rest of its duration out, so I’d calm down long enough to do something about my Feeblemind.
I’ve got different kinds of “rage” in my game. Everything from the blind red “kill EVERYTHING” rage to the cold rage that locks all feeling down and you become hyper focused. If a player has conditions in their background that might lead to them going into a rage, then they roll at character creation what kind of rage it will be.
Overwhelming emotion type spells and effects will always require some kind of save, but as the character gain levels and experience, I modify those saves to reflect that. Something that might have sent their first level mage screaming for the exit, is simply acknowledged as something their 8th level mage recognizes and has learned to set aside or at least recover from quicker.
Especially things that are widely known to have that effect. Going against a dragon and worried about “dragon fear” paralyzing the group at an inopportune moment? The go dig out a sage or two and see if you can find a remedy/spell/magic item that you can use to offset it. Headed into a cursed catacombs, stock up on things that offset the effects of the usual undead that you think you might run into.
I always try and reward proper planning and well thought out approaches to problems. Also, if a player can give me a reasonable argument on why their character wouldn’t be affected, I’ll usually roll with it. I seriously lean into the “hero” aspect of the game and it wouldn’t be at all heroic for the party to constantly be fleeing from foes. Fear effect will still happen, but I’ll do my best to keep your character from having to spend the next few days cleaning the inside of their armor.
In PF2e, it’s easily reconciled since Frightened just applies a status penalty to checks and DCs, as opposed to 5e tacking on the can’t move closer to the source of fear to frightened which doesn’t always make sense. “This thing is scary and that makes me angry and I wanna smash it” is how I would expect a barbarian to react to fear.
I have an issue from the opposite perspective. In Pathfinder 1e, a PC who wants to invest in fear-causing can easily outpace any opponent due to how Intimidate is calculated (1d20 + 1 skill point per level + CHA + other bonuses, while Intimidate resistance is 10 + 1/2 lvl + WIS). With moderate effort, a PC can leave any enemy who doesn’t explicitly have immunity to fear/mind-affecting fleeing in terror no matter how little sense it makes. My old GM once told me of the Giantslayer AP he was a player in where he had an Intimidate-focused Inquisitor and had to promise the GM that he wouldn’t use his unbeatable fear powers to force the campaign’s final boss to run away.
In a more recent campaign, we’ve had a halfling Bard with fear expertise. He has a racial trait that makes him look creepily like a porcelain doll when he isn’t moving. Then he raises his triangle and taps it once and sends uncontrollable fear into the hearts of nearby giants and bears. It’s not the most encounter-ending thing he has (that would be the spell Hold Monster), and it is hilarious when it happens, but it’s still kind of an incongruous result.
From a player’s perspective, this vile nonsense is why I still build characters in 3e’s ‘saves are king’ meta. I’m aware it’s no longer the meta. I do not care.
As a GM, I’ve seen fear done in various systems, and I hate it in almost all of them. And I think it’s important I stipulate here that everything I GM has horror elements, sometimes strongly-and I hate how Fear works in these games.
So at my table, it’s simple. Frightening Presence, Horror Factors-basically, anything that’s PASSIVE and makes people run away-GONE. Until the -whatever it is- does something to terrify you, you can act normally.
Now that said-I DO believe in morale rolls. And if the big, terrifying monster EATS someone or does any one of a number of truly ghastly things, then and only then will I make you make a save against any sort of passive fear effect.
I’m somewhat more ok with Fear spells, although I still don’t like them for the same reason I don’t like any control effects. There is nothing much worse than being at the table and getting your turn passed while your character is out of control.
I like the way Wrath & Glory does it. If you get feared you have a small minus to ability checks. That’s it. You don’t run away or anything.
That way, you can play a tough fighter and simply say that you’re afraid but you sucked it up to be the hero that you are.
There are two things that heavily influenced how I see fear (especially in 5e). The first is the Nazguls from Lord of the Rings and their black smoke. That is how I see magical fear. It gripped pretty much everyone and only those who were either incredibly strong willed, magical or outright suicidal were able to withstand it. Wish I could find the passages, because they really invoke the deep sense of dread the Nazgul bring with them. And that is how I try to describe supernatural fear, as being supernatural. The sort of fear you feel in your very soul. With a living Scarecrow it might draw forth your deepest nightmares (Also a good role-playing opportunity, as you get to ask your player what their characters greatest nightmare is). With a Specter or Ghost you feel their icey hands grip your soul and with a Dragon you might be paralyzed by their overwhelming power. Here I find a supernatural fear effect can really help sell the powerlevel or unnaturalness of whatever they are fighting.
The other part I take inspiration from, are the times I have felt fear in my own life. I find some people can´t understand what being frozen in fear is truly-like until they have felt it themselves. For me, I just kinda froze completely and was completely trapped for a moment. I know others who react with crying or panic and yet others who turn to aggression. Or it might be like those moments where you are just gripped with a deep and primal sense of wrongness and danger in a certain situation. The moment where every instinct you have screams at you to just get the hell out of dodge.
That said, I do think 5e is pretty clumsy at it, as it prevents your character from moving closer to the target which kinda sucks a lot for a melee based character. I personally prefer how it is done in stuff like Pathfinder 2e, where you get a penalty to your checks and DCs, but can still act. Through I do also think it is worth mentioning that a D&D/Pathfinder round is only 6 seconds long in universe, as easy as that is to forget at times. When a battle takes 2 hours. Which means your character might have spent a total of 12 seconds being frightened by whatever you are dealing with. Which really isn´t all that long to be frightened by the grim specter of death.
I also think fear effects should be at least somewhat rare. And I am generally not overly fond of non-supernatural fear induced conditions. Through I do like how it worked in a one-shot game i played once (Homebrewed system), where you could chose several conditions when you took “damage” one of the mental/morale damage condition which was frightened (Others where angry, jealous and hasty/nervous (Not sure how to translate it, basically that you are trying to do everything as quickly as possible and get out). Meaning it was up to the player to chose when they got “Frightened”.
Personally I enjoy the relatively low Will/Wisdom saves that come with being a martial. My allies should be as afraid of me being mind-controlled as my enemies are of me in a lucid rage. It partly convinces me I’m a threat. When everyone fears my skills as a warrior, I have succeeded.
But also, part of my fantasy is that people fumble, or rather, that people fail to do damage. In movies, tv shows, and anime, the heroes might successfully wade through swaths of minions without trouble, but it’s rare that the fight between a hero and a villain doesn’t involve a substantial amount of whiffing or hits that don’t pierce defenses. Heck, that’s half the fun. The fun of the “damage through sheer strength” power fantasy is that I may not *always* hit, but when I do, the victim sees how serious my threat is.
It’s partly what makes one of my favorite moments in gaming. My party was on the Abyss and facing three Balor. I won initiative, and before the Balor could Daze us with Blasphemy, I pounced on one of the demons, bringing it from full to 5% max hp. The next turn the injured Balor fled, and one of them spent each of its turns inflicting us with Daze. The other tried unsuccessfully to defeat our casters so it could execute each of us martials.
The fact that I was a spectator for the fight didn’t matter to me. What mattered was that I was so severe a threat that I evened the odds singlehandedly and the demon’s action economy made the fight effectively a 1v2, rather than a 3v5.
All that matters to me is that I am strong enough to make the GM plan and act around (or even because of) me.
Supernatural fear effects are one thing; that at least makes sense in context, it’s just another emotion-altering magical effect.
The real problems are the handful of creatures with explicitly non-supernatural fear auras
Did anybody else misread “Geralt of Rivia” as “Geraldo Rivera”?
You are not the only one:
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/geraldo-del-rivero
And this is why you bring the paladin. For those sweet sweet aura bonuses.
I really like Spuddnik’s solution to it as it feels flavorful and doesn’t ruin the player’s image of their character.
The dissonance for fear mechanics can be pretty immersion breaking sometimes. “We’ve fought reanimated corpses and literal demons from hell without issue, but somehow this spiky doggo is just too scary? How does that make any sense?”
Thanks to years of playing Werewolf The Apocalypse we tend to describe fear effects as explicitly magical effects directly attacking vulnerabilities in the character’s subconscious. That Werewolf isn’t just scary, it’s actively flooding your mind with ancestral memories. In that moment you’re not a trained and well armed soldier; you’re a helpless prey animal facing down an apex predator and every instinct is screaming at you to run.