Specific Weapon
And while we’re on the subject, you shouldn’t mistake the “Magic Items” chapter of the Core Rule Book for a shopping catalog either. There’s a reason that the guys behind 5e D&D left the prices out of the rules. You’re supposed to loot up by adventuring and questing, retrieving the Sword of MacGuffin from the Tomb of Plot Device by honest work and the sweat of thy brow. When said sword resides in Ye Old Shoppe rather than a dangerous tomb, it suddenly loses its luster. That way lies the mithral skillet. Ain’t nobody want the mithral skillet.
And yet, if you prowl around on 5e forums, you’ll still find dudes requesting pricing advice on a weekly basis. You’ll get referred to the Sane Magic Item Prices thread over on GitP. You’ll find players clamoring for their magic item shops because “I really need it for my build.” And as a GM, you’ll have to figure out how to respond to this mess.
In short, I like it when systems provide me (the GM) with magic item prices. I don’t like it when players assume they can pop down to the local Kum & Go for a 6 pack of holy avengers. And if I want both of those things, I have to manage item availability.
My group is over 7 years into our megadungeon game as of this writing. All this time later, I’m still running with the system that dungeon designers Monte Cook laid out for managing exactly this issue. The basic gimmick is a travelling magic merchant and his son. They show up once a month in the small town the PCs call home. Since they’re repeat customers, the party also have the option of blowing a magic whistle to summon these merchants, in which case they show up in 3d4 days. If the PCs ever go full murderhobo (Let’s rob the magic item vendor! We’ll be rich!), it activates a custom item that teleports the merchants back to safety.
As far as inventory, this magic shop of mine always has healing supplies, as well as a selection of +1 weapons and armors. This is basic gear, and it’s meant to get a starting party underway. In addition, there are about a dozen unique items in the cart each time the merchants show up. These items range from the dirt-cheap to way-out-of-the-party’s-price-range. I hand pick these items to be interesting and quirky rather than straight-up powerhouse items (most of those can be found in the dungeon). The result is that my PCs have an assortment of gear to choose from while I still control what goes into their pockets. The downside is that I have to put in the effort to find relevant images for each item.
This is only one solution, but it’s worked for me from Level 2 all the way up to Level 17. I have made one additional tweak though. If the PCs want to ask this magic merchant to look out for a specific item, they put in the order, roll a % chance to see if he finds it, and then pay a 10% surcharge on his return visit. I’m not sure he’d actually come up with a pulse canon, but this allows niche builds to at least have a chance of finding the +2 elven branched spear of backscratching that they just can’t live without.
This is my take on solving the “magic item shop problem” in my own games. What about the rest of you guys though? How do you manage the magic item economy without turning wondrous treasure of myth and legend into mundane commodities? Sound off with you own solutions and tricks down in the comments!
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I like to have basic magic items available for purchase just to reduce frustration for fighting-types when they run up against things resistant or immune to nonmagical weapons. Other than that, I show items based on what seems fun and appropriate to a location, and if players are interested in a specific item, I see what I can do to give them access. Often, rare and valuable items won’t be buyable, but will be quest rewards. As a recent example, one of my campaigns brought the players to Aaqa on the Elemental Plane of Air, so I focused on air-related magic items (ranging from the impractical-but-fun Cloak of Billowing to highly useful things like Winged Boots), and when one of the players asked about getting a Ring of Djinni Summoning, I said that they’re not sold for coin, but djinn sometimes give them to people who complete great services for them.
Mostly I turn wonderous items of myth and legend into commodities, you know like real life people did when the Doge of Venice bought unicorn horn (as a random concrete example he certainly wasn’t unique in any way) and people had a brisk trade in relics and similar objects, except with the crucial difference that the objects actually exists.
This does generally look more like commissioning a custom work from a master craftsman, or pulling on connections in the specialized trade world (again like buying extremely valuable high quality items in analogous periods of time in the real world), instead of like a Walmart.
I do this because the whole “magic items only appear in holes in the ground as loot drops, no one can actually make them in-universe, as through this where a video game, or possibly in the one designated vendor” feels exceedingly fake to me, and has a tendency to reduce those supposedly wonderous treasures of myth and legend into worthless junk that no one actually want from all you can see of the world.
This. Right here.
There are games where low magic items work, but they are almost always also low magic games.
I also typically like a “magic mart,” since I play PF/SF and that sort of thing is pretty commensurate with the game’s flavor and level of magic.
I’m not really into “wondrous treasure of myth and legend”. Sealing away an aspect of the game world behind “it’s from a bygone era, nobody can make that stuff anymore” is lazy world-building, passing the buck of cause and effect into a realm that the PCs can never visit. If magic items exist, there must be a process for making them.
Now, that process doesn’t have to be easy, or cheap, or straightforward, or even logical. But it has to be possible. And basic economics dictates that if it’s possible to make a magic item for less expense (physical resources, time, inconvenience, danger) than somebody is willing to pay for it, then people will make these things and sell them.
Personally, I’m all for low-level items (Common and Uncommon in 5E terms) being more-or-less freely available, subject to actually being in a big enough population centre to find somebody who can make them. And it shouldn’t be too difficult for PCs to make them themselves, with the right expertise, tools, resources and time. More powerful items require more research and better connections in order to acquire, in much the same way that I personally don’t know how to go about buying a luxury yacht IRL. But they exist, or can be made by the right person for the right investment.
Well, as there are very few really magical items in KAP (King Arthur Pendragon), this is not really a problem. Also, any magical weapon that you may want is, almost by definition, a/the reason to go on a quest. And mostly the magical weapons that are there have both a positive and a negative effects, so might not be as desirable in the first place. The Heart Blade for instance will gives you +2 on your sword skill. However, the true magic only works when you are worthy of it. You will have to have at least 80 points in the sum of all six love virtues (forgiving, generous, honest, just, merciful, trusting), and then it will be +5 skill and +1d6 damage. And those are doubled when you attack, or are attacked by someone who is inspired by a hate passion. However, if you inspire yourself by a hate passion, it does 2D6 damage to you, each round, until dropped. So magic items are sought, but are not usable, or even practical, for everybody.
I’ve ranged from full catalogue to no catalogue.
Last time I did (sort of) allow the catalogue though, I was soured on it. The party’s latest quest-given was to be the ancient red dragon who ran the local university. Upon accepting his quest, the players immediately snatched up the two copies of the equipment book that we had, and started rattling off everything they would “need” to do this quest. By the time I realized they were writing it all down, these 7th level muderhobos had added a plethora of high level gear to their character sheets, and adjusted all the numbers on the assumption that their patron had simply given it to them. For free.
In retrospect, the dragon would have said “I asked this quest of you because I believe you capable. Are you suggesting with your requests for so much aid that I’m wasting my time on you? If so, I can incinerate you now, and begin my search for a competent party to do my quest.”
At the time though, I somewhat numbly threw up my hands, let them pat themselves on their backs about getting so much free stuff from their patron’s hoard (stuff which had not initially been in there, I will note. He was an academic dragon who liked books, scrolls, and other magical nerd stuff, not magic armor and swords), and quietly ditched the campaign. We never played that one again.
Nowadays I do a hard “No catalogue whatsoever” rule. Potion merchants occasionally show up, but beyond that, magical gear is meant to be looted, not purchased.
One of my favorite approaches is the crafters’ guild, a collection of ringsmiths, wandmakers, sundrymongers, and other such makers of fine magic items… who, by necessity, are almost all former adventurers in order to meet the prerequisites for those item creation feats. Not only does make the “stick a bucket on his head and rob him blind” plan a lot less viable, it gives me some fun characters to use for livening up cities, providing helpful allies, and kicking off quests. If you’ve got a commission, especially for something exotic or specific, providing some of the raw materials may be part of the cost.
I’m stealing that for the next game I run.
Honestly, hasn’t been a problem for me. Even in adventure paths, usually the GM at least changes the magical weapons to something that someone can use if you ask ahead of time, and every group has a Craft Wondrous Item user. Eventually they might need something truly unique, but if they’re high enough level to call a Djinn to go pick up groceries from the City of Brass, they can probably find anything they want.
I suppose if the idea of a one-stop shop for magic items was really a problem for a GM, I would pay for information about the item I wanted instead. Maybe I could hire some adventurers to retrieve it from a tomb, or perhaps a noble needs some cash and is willing to let go of an artifact he has. It wouldn’t feel like magic items are commonplace, but they would still be accessible to the players.
Varies with edition. In 3e it was something of a shopping catalogue. In 4e it was easier to just get the party wizard to create the stuff we wanted. And in 5e, it’s more like Santa, with suitable items just happening to show up at the right time.
I use a mixture of magic shops for common items, and commissions and dungeons for special items. Basically, I ask my players what they want as key items, and then find a way to give it to them, with some random items added in between. I don’t like the “Oh, you can’t order items” idea since someone has to have made all the stuff that PCs find, and I loathe the “We can’t make them any more” trope. But, usually, finding the rare stuff needed for a rare magic item is an adventure in itself.
I’m a big fan of Pathfinder’s Automatic Bonus Progression rules, where +X bonuses are tied to a character, rather than to weapons and armour. Basically, you remove items like +1 swords and Cloaks of Resistance and instead have the party find bonusless Flaming Swords that they have to attune to in order to make work. It means they don’t need to be swapping out gear as they level up, and allows for some more interesting magic items, without players feeling like they’re penalizing themselves for not taking the ‘standard’ choices.
I do a lot of things, but basically magic items cannot be had for money. In 5E, I offer the following:
Potions, scrolls, and charms are readily available for purchase in large cities. Any kind of potion can be found, but scrolls are generally capped at 5th level. Higher level scrolls do exist, but you need to go to a specialized seller for that. Charms are passive one time use magic items, made of things like protective amulets, pins, or little figurines and the like. They rarely add any bonuses, but activate when something occurs, granting a free reroll or an effect. A charm of protection against poison means you automatically succeed your first failed save against poison, while a charm of water breathing gives you 10 minutes of water breathing the moment you begin to drown.
I have non-magical +1/+1 weapons called masterwork quality readily available for 25x normal price. I’ve also made it that all monsters are vulnerable to either cold iron or silver weapons, which are readily available for the low, low price of 5x base cost. These prices are cumulative, so a silvered masterwork is 125x normal cost.
Finally, I do allow magic item purchasing from select individuals. These guys are always ex-adventurers who have retired. However, they will never just sell magic items. They will want a magic item of roughly equivalent value in exchange, using thousands of gp to make up the difference.
A merchant makes an excellent quest giver, I feel, as they’re generally someone the PCs might interact with, offers a useful service in exchange for money or errands, and might be interested in stuff the PCs aren’t.
One such quest give I theorycrafted is that of a coin collector merchant – as part of a larger collection they already, he might want to complete their collection of ancient coins gotten from old ruins.
Whether they have actual plot significance or power is up to the campaign in question, but they’d be up to pay for much more than a non-collector for the coins, and the PCs would not have reason to swindle them or keep the coins.
Thus, the PCs are given reason to delve ruins (to find coins), which they themselves can’t use but can sell for profit to the quest giver, or trade for actually useful gear to them. Even if they sell the coin to another person, the merchant can just buy it off of them to complete the collection anyway (and be disappointed by the PCs).
In Pathfinder, the ideal way to go around this problem of supply/demand for PCs is to use a magical traveling merchant, preferably with dimensional travel. Think the guy from the start of Alladin, only more magical.
There’s an entire race of them in Pathfinder, called Mercane. They’re blue-skinned magical merchants who can travel through dimensions, teleport, and come with a built in secret chest ability, letting them carry their wares almost anywhere.
Having the PCs befriend one of them and get a way to ‘call’ on their merchant services ends any problems they might have with acquisition of supplies – assuming they can pay the Mercane.
https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Mercane
A big problem with shops, shopping lists and loot acquisition is that PCs don’t actually have many outlets for the massive amounts of gold they usually acquire, from say, claiming a dragon’s hoard.
They (generally) don’t retire, don’t pay taxes, and spend only a fraction of it on living costs or housing. Thus, most of it has to be spent on adventuring gear, i.e. magic items with inflated costs. Otherwise, your PCs will be disheartened by the acquisition of ‘useless gold’ that they can’t spend due to a lack of shops or services they require.
I genuinely don’t know what the 5e designers expected players to do with all the gold they find/are paid, because they didn’t write it down. Some DMs manage to find a way to make that work out, some don’t.
Some groups (including my own) end up not really caring; we’ll divvy up spoils we find and accept rewards we’re offered, but we usually don’t ask for/haggle over rewards or dig around for every spare copper unless someone’s deliberately playing a greedy character. I like not playing a profit-focused adventuring party, but the game has just enough things gold is actually useful for (mostly armor and potions) that I can’t credit the designers for it.
Street Sammy is lucky she isn’t using Shadowrun rules for availability. In the short time I’ve played Shadowrun, the most difficult checks I’ve had to make was to buy the gear I need (illegally, since nobody wants a trace to their purchases and have their fake SIN burned) – to the point I’ve got nuyen burning through my pocket because I am unable to find the gear I want to buy. It’s why you NEED to have contacts or a great face to be able to find the dang gear you can already afford. Or have to do special missions to get some extra-illegal contraband or special gear.
Every game needs to decide whether magic items are a core part of how characters accumulate power or not. If they are, like in earlier editions of D&D (and also Pathfinder), some approximation of a magic mart is critical. If they aren’t, then you have a bit more freedom.
D&D 5e is somewhere in the middle. Most of the basic +numbers items have been stripped out, but there are a few items that every character needs at some point (mostly a magic weapon, to overcome the resistance/immunity many high-level monsters have to nonmagical weaponry).
Personally, I think the game would be better if the remaining +2 swords and +1 breastplates and so on were removed from the game and replaced with more specific magic items.
Instead of a +2 sword, you might have a Sword of Gathering Clouds, which lets you control winds and attack from a distance. Instead of a +1 breastplate, you might have Vulcan Armor, which makes you resistant to fire damage and has obsidian blades along the elbows.
The important thing is that these items need to 1. let the character do something that’s pretty unique and neat and 2. not just increase numbers. Ideally, they should give benefits that anyone can kind of use and nobody feels are critical to their build—an impossible ideal, but something to strive for. Ideally, players would want specific magic items not for min-maxing purposes, but because they think an obvious rip-off of Grass-Cutter sounds cool.
I too favour the Wandering Merchant strategy. Specifically, I have a group of merchants that show up every two “chapters” selling a collection of powerful, cursed, homebrewed, or just plain weird items. I’m always sure to include a Mystery Box for an exorbitant price in which I can hide stuff I want the players to have (one time I hid an animal companion in there) because I’m almost certain each time that my players’ curiosity will compel them to buy it.
Of course, that’s in Pathfinder, where the characters are supposed to have magic items that grow with their level. In the transition to 5e I kept the merchants, but hugely de-powered the gear they sell and leaned more into the weird side of things. I still think magic item shops have their place in the DnD economy, as a money sink if nothing else. Unless you’re starting a business, what else is there to spend your thousands of hard-earned gold on?
why does the item teleport the merchant to safety, rather than the murder hobos to unsafety? … saving throw I guess.
Alternatively: could a device selectively teleport a shop and shopkeep while leaving the customers behind?
So far my players and I have treated the „Ultimate Equipment“ book as a sort of order catalogue.
In the case of King Maker, when there is absolutely all the money and time in the world to just manufacture what they want, with strict orders to never bring along more than the level equivalent in GP worth of equipment.
This rule comes with the exemption of especially expensive and useless items like an Aparatus of the Crab.
I think I‘m not going to change that in the future. Instead I will treat encounters as one or even two levels easier, as far as XP are concerned, whenever the PCs are equipped to their hearts content.
I forget where it was said in the 5E books (I think the DMG) but 5E says something to the effect of “The market for magic items is a lot like the real world’s fine-art market: You don’t just waltz down to any store to buy it; you go to a fancy auction if you’re high-profile enough to even get in.” Buying a Holy Avenger is like buying a DaVinci original.
I really like the Xanathar’s rules (P. 126) for magic item shopping: It takes at least a week of asking around, and 100GP of resources for bribes/drinks/getting in the door. Afterward the player who did the searching makes a Charisma(Persuasion) check with a bonus based on the amount of time/money spent searching, with the result determining what kind of magic items are available to be sold to the player. That said; I don’t roll on the tables, I provide items for sale if the players put in the work that I feel would be fun/interesting for said players.
I think it has to be context-dependent on the item in question. Simple things like basic +1 magic weapons and items that are useful to the average citizen probably would be available on every street corner, the same way we could just go buy a smartphone or a toaster.
There’s also the issue of gold. At higher levels, money tends to accrue faster than the players can spend it if there’s no opportunity to purchase rare and powerful magic items. There are only so many consumables that the party can collect, and high level casters can make even things like potions of healing redundant in large quantities. The players have to have some opportunity to buy expensive toys or money becomes a pointless resource fairly quickly.
Other than that, I like the way Pathfinder 1E handled buying magic items. You determined what rarity of items were available depending on the size of the city you were in, and then rolled randomly to determine which particular items were available. It does a nice job of striking the balance between keeping rare and powerful magic items appropriately rare while still giving determined players the option of shelling out their hard-earned gold for them.
The way I see it is this, common magic items should take minimum effort to find and buy, if they are available, uncommon is where the leg work comes in, but they shouldn’t be beyond the resources of a level five party. Any rarity after that should take a major quest of lots of time and money.
Legendary items should be the end goal of a significant sized quest, never for sale unless they are driving the plot, such as the players being tasked with protecting it or recovering it. In settings where magic items are more common, like Eberron, You can probably have uncommon items in stores, but players might have to pool their resources to buy them.
Sounds reasonable to me. The only issue I can see is player progression. If common magic items are no longer relevant to high-level players, you effectively lose the ability to purchase magic items at higher level. That’s sensible from a world-building standpoint, but seems less satisfying as a play experience.
Maybe you have to use magic to get magic? Have rarer items be available from merchants on other planes or who require the parts of rare (and dangerous) creatures as part of their payment; they’ve got to get materials somehow, and they certainly aren’t out there adventuring themselves!
I have magic item shops in most large cities/metropolises (high level party does shopping trips across most of the continent). If they go to a shop looking for a specific item, I have them roll for whether or not it is there (a ‘luck’ roll, if you will). Rarer/more expensive items are comparably more rare, and above a certain rarity/price, the items cannot be found in any standard shop (Some special black markets may have it though, if they are very lucky and willing to pay big upcharges). Additionally, rarer items, or items being sold in places that don’t ask many questions generally get a higher up-charge over base value – the “evil tax” as I put it.
Most shops take a while to restock, and more expensive items may not show up again for years. High value potions take months to restock.
And lastly – no shop is without security appropriate to the value of its goods. Invisibility in a magic shop is sure to trigger a few contingency hold persons, alarm spells, and more.
I’ve got to say that I totally disagree with D&D 5e’s decision to excise prices from it’s gear catalogue. Being able to acquire or make cool gear is a solid 10% of the fun in a game for me.
But surely you can understand the impulse that led to that decision? The “make magic feel special” shtick doesn’t work as well when there’s a retail row o’ weapons.
My point in brining it up is less to say that there’s a correct decision than to point out there are tradeoffs at work.
Yeah playing with very few magic items is like tracking encumbrance and ration usage. It can be good fun in the right campaign.
Generally I don’t have magic items lying around in shops for purchase. But, in a large enough settlement there’s probably someone you can commission to make it for you. You have to find out who they are, contact them to set up the job, wait a few days for them to finish with their current project/s, pay the gold and materials up front, then come back at the end of the crafting time to pick up your item.
Consumables are a easier. Any mage college/alchemist shop/group of temples probably has the trainees cranking those things out as homework. The selection will be a bit random, but it’s also a lot easier to speak to a teacher/priest/manager and get something specific made in the next set.
“How do you manage the magic item economy without turning wondrous treasure of myth and legend into mundane commodities?”
I think a lot of the problems people have with magic items come from the assumptions baked into that question. It seems to me that there are two fundamentally different ways to look at magic items in games such as D&D.
On the one hand, you have magic items as technology. In the fluff, the secrets of crafting magic items are well known and they are a standard part of the world, something that anyone with appropriate funds and access to the resources of civilization can lay their hands on. Even a +5 vorpal sword is something like a private jet or a Ferrari. Expensive and rare, but totally purchasable if you have enough money. In this approach, magic items become tools that the players should reasonably be assumed to have access to at appropriate levels, and the GM builds his monsters under the assumption that parties of level X will have appropriate levels of magic equipment and equips his NPCs with level-appropriate magic gear.
And then on the other side, you have magic items as wonders. These are the settings where magic items are rare and unique. Crafting a magic sword might require multiple session’s worth of adventures to retrieve rare and unique components and jump through hoops, and possessing one makes the PC stand out from his fellows. Magic items become things that bend the rules, that give the PCs capabilities few others possess and make players feel special and extraordinary.
Or you can combine these approaches: Perhaps potions and scrolls can be freely crafted and are available for purchase, but permanent items require unique components and jumping through hoops. Perhaps any wizard with proper training and resources can craft a +1 flaming sword, but no mortal could forge a +3 fiery burst sword and if you want one you’ll have to go on a quest to get one from an angel.
But the point is, whichever approach or combination of approaches you go with, you need to think the issue through and you need to make it clear to your players what magic items represent in your gameworld. Otherwise you get the exact issues you bring up here: players who favor the “magic items as wonders” approach being irritated because the commoditization of magic is undermining the wonder and awe they look for from their magic items, or players who favor the “magic items as tech” approach feeling screwed over because the GM won’t let them buy the gear they feel they should reasonably have access to.
In recent years, I think the problem stems from 5e making the call on behalf of players and GMs. By excluding magic item prices, the default becomes “wondrous and rare” rather than “commonplace” or “hybrid.”
Unfortunately, the second you include prices the default switches to “shopping catalogue,” even when designers include specific warnings against those practices (which 3.X books did).
I’m arguing that you should enable either approach, but make the decisions points you’re describing LUDICROUSLY EXPLICIT in the magic item chapter. GMs and players have to be conscious of the tradeoffs to make informed decisions. And that’s precisely the reason that I (and now you) have written an internet screed on the topic.
Would it help if the prices explicitly said “approximately”, to distinguish from the shopping catalogue prices that more common items get?
I think that, in 5e terms, the “common, uncommon, rare” tags could be read exactly as an attempt to add “approximately” to cost.
Same deal with item levels in Starfinder. It’s just another tool to gate access.
I think that if you wanted to do that, then giving a price range might help, otherwise the approximately could easily mentally “fall off”. This would have the tradeoff that it’d make it very difficult to sell a given item having a higher price than the range in a specific case.
Never really had to deal with this as a GM, but I will take the opportunity to throw out to the universe that I have considered in the past homebrewing a martial class/subclass that swears off magic items in exchange for cool abilities.
Food for thought:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/monk-vows/vow-of-poverty/
https://dndtools.net/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds–52/vow-of-poverty–3081/
Sadly the PF version is nigh unplayable in most games, unless you go low-magic or ‘commoner games’, or limit progression to lvl6.
Meanwhile the BoED version gradually becomes overpowered with the right build (and a DM that doesn’t try to ruin you).
The BoED version is still terrible, albeit less so than the PF version as long as your DM isn’t screwing you on magic items. It can be ok on something like a druid that doesn’t rely on items much, but you’ll still probably be worse off than if you didn’t take VoP. The only case I can think of where VoP is good to the point of possibly being overpowered is when you use the exalted companion feat to put it on your animal companion, as you probably weren’t planning on spending much on your animal companion’s gear anyways.
One slight advantage (and it is slight) to the PF version, is that it unlike the BoED version it doesn’t require you to still take your share of the partys treasure[1]. This means that if the GM keeps dividing out treasure as normal then the power could be thought off as essentially being a “buffer” that improves the other party members capability at the cost of personal effectiveness. Everybody else having +1 to attack/damage because their magic weapons are +1 better is much the same as a low-level bardic performance in result after all.
It’s pretty difficult to keep that bonus effectiveness in your minds eye though when the other people always have it without you needing to do anything to maintain it and the connection to you is so indirect.
[1] which ironically can make someone with BoED Vow of Poverty into the greediest party member, everybody else might be fine with say letting a friend borrow a bit of treasure to get that big item they are waiting for early and then make up for it later, but the VoP taker aren’t allow).
Ever had a player choose a weapon you have never heard of and they’re just crushed when their Widget Weapon is never in a loot list?
I’m sure you have.
We’re people, not computers. The only way to make this fair would be random loot tables, and the last time I looked in the DMG, the layout was complicated. How many rolls on what tables is reasonable?
The catalogue may not be super great, but nor is the alternative.
I think of magic items as falling into 1 of 3 catagories. 1) stuff designed to be used by anyone, particularly in emergencies, like potions and scrolls. These items are made and sold anywhere there are magic-users, with a better selection in larger cities. 2) stuff made to be used by an individual like magic weapons and armour, remember d&d and other fantasy works are set in pre-industrial societies so these will have to be made bespoke. making one of these (or having it made for you) will likely require a sidequest or 2 to aquire the appropriate resources and/or secure the help of a craftsman. 3) “artifacts”, one-of-a-kind magic items with history and unique quirks of their nature. these are the ones you find in dragon hoards and the grave-goods of a legendary hero. even questing to find one might not be enough to wield it, you’ll need to convince it to help you.
If a build depend on a specific item it’s quite shitty as a build. Even Ironman can manage without his armor. Finding them or making them are good alternatives to just buy them. Buying small magical items, utility things, +1 and that could be fair. Best is to bargain with the DM. “We get these items as reward, but we need to do this mission” is also a good idea 🙂
In Pathfinder 1e it’s pretty hard to avoid considering that getting those magic items is more or less essential to even keep up with the curve. The best way around it IMO is to only allow buying stronger items in large cities or allowing the players to make them with the appropriate crafting feats (annoying as those are to try to implement). In my just wrapped up Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign, there was little reason to limit buying items so long as we were in one of the big cities of Varisia, but it would likely be smart to put limits on just how powerful of items could possibly be bought even in those big cities.
In 5e, for the most basic items like healing potions, I don’t see any problem having a limited number in even small hamlets. But for stronger items I like stuff like the Vestiges of Divergence from Critical Role or the artifacts from the Mythic Odysseys of Theros books that get stronger as you meet conditions. That way the items truly feel special and don’t make the players try to shop around for stronger items.
“You really need it for your build? Then I guess your build won’t be achieved in this game. I told you up front, when we started, that you’ll get the gear you get – so if you try to balance a build on specific equipment that might not be available, this is what happens. I’ll allow you to rebuild knowing this, but just this once.”
Set that expectation up front. If they want specific magic items, hire and supply an enchanter. (In a sci-fi campaign I’m running these days, one of the superpowers is that the party ship has a large factory and asteroid mining component, which can be used to make gear for the party when it doesn’t have more important tasks. But they do have to think of what they want. There are limits to how fast it can make stuff, and the party is constantly on the clock.)
I have played more than one character who would have had use for a mithral skillet. Some things are dangerous to cook.
Well of course you want the literal skillet. It’s the metaphorical one that gets ya.
Most of the long term groups I’ve been in have had magic crafters of various types. I even made a Dwarven Forgepriest, which is a warpriest archetype that gets Craft Magic Arms & Armor as a bonus feat. And my GMs houseruled that alchemists qualify as spellcasters for the purpose of item creation feats. I was able to get my alchemist Brew Potion (his archetype trades it away). He owns a bar and I thought it would be fun to sell potions alongside the booze.
It’s funny. Back when I was the magical crafter, my GM specifically objected to crafting belts and headbands and rings of protection. He thought it was too gamey, and instead instituted a system of “crafting material loot drops.” I’d only be able to craft the stuff that was thematically linked to the materials (fire resistant items for dragon hide, regenerative items for troll bits, etc.). Can’t say I was a fan of the idea at the time, but I do appreciate the impulse to keep the world thematic rather than purely economic.
Now I just have to get some new formulas into his formula book so he can make a bigger variety of potions. He’s only a level 4 alchemist at the moment so the inventory is a little limited.
It’s pretty much inescapable.
If a magic item is to be special, it pretty much must give a significant benefit to the character.
Therefore characters with magic items will be significantly stronger than ones without.
The challenges adventurers face must be scaled to them to be considered a challenge.
Therefore, there’s the assumption that a character must have a reasonable amount of magic items built into every adventure and challenge rating.
Therefore, there must be a reasonable way for them to get these magic items.
Therefore they can’t be THAT rare or THAT special.
I don’t think a perfect solution is even possible.
How does this chain of logic compare to the 5e design philosophy of “the game is balanced around players without magic items?”
As regards to potions specifically being assumed to be readily available consider some of the modern mythology on that front:
1.) You can make a healing potion out of just bleach
2.) The more you water a potion down the stronger it becomes
If you base your thinking on America’s myths it really implies that they ought to be everywhere if they work
lol. I want there to be a bunch of illusion-based “placebo” potions now. They only work if you fail your WIS save.
Instead of a wandering merchant, how about a yugoloth arms dealer operating out of a shop that keeps mysteriously appearing in different places (it’s actually a suite in Khin-Oin in Hades and the just door moves around). And it’s made really apparent that he’s selling to both sides of whatever conflict they’re involved in.
Respect. I don’t think I’ve actually seen “arms dealer” as a magic shop concept in a game. It’s pretty obvious though, especially in war-based campaigns.
On this specific subject, for Pathfinder/SF at least, the “special item economy” is too hardwired into the system to make any sort of “ZOMG! Magic items are uber rare!!1!” notion really commensurate with the game’s default state.
In my setting, which is very much a “Jazz Age” fantasy world where things are measurably advancing, you’ll still only find “magic marts” in larger towns where it makes sense to have them, and in cities as a matter of course. Smaller towns typically just have a much smaller selection, mostly just imports with a section in the local general store.
(As an aside, DMG population sizes have always felt too small to support the grand nation states and centralized kingdoms you see in most settings. I honestly just use these suggestions as a fix: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?557875-Settlement-Sizes)
I agree, the default popukation numbers WAY too small. The biggest cities in the entire MULTIVERSE have less people in them than Rome did 2000 years ago
Having designations like “Jazz Age Fantasy” helps to reset the metaphors. If the magical equivalent of a tommy gun in a violin case is commonplace, then trying to figure out what is special and exceptional becomes its own challenge. For example, would an especially cool souped-up jalopy be the thing that elicits a whistle of appreciation?
Yep!
And frankly, my basic concept of item availability can work in basically any setting that has the so called “default” level of magic.
Note: This is more than a little because I am sick unto death of the standard “medieval stasis” campaign.
Well, bottom line for me is this:
If there is no Magic Mart, or something reasonably close to it from which the PCs can buy magic, then there is no Magic Mart to buy their magic items either.
Whatever hoops the PCs have to jump through to buy a magic item should also therefore be applied to selling them. At which point you’ve rendered most of their loot so much of a pain in the ass as to no longer be worth picking up.
Not sure that’s the case. Wealthy collectors can exist without being shopping centers. In that sort of paradigm, it’s about finding private buyers rather than walking into a store. That makes trade goods more attractive, and incentivizes using “crappy magic items” instead of selling them.
Frankly, I would rather err on the side of “cheaper/more common magic” than not.
Again, this is more than a little because I am tired of the “standard fantasy setting” having no change from the medieval standard. I’d much rather progress be evident in the world.
As an aside, Edy! You’re back! Alleluia!
(This is Endarire from 339 and MinMaxForums!)
I never considered the magic mart to be a problem, honestly. This certainly doesn’t mean every settlement and town will have +3 weapons and 40k GP in Wondrous items for sale, but it does mean that there are individuals who have realized that providing highly enchanted gear to nobility and well to do adventurers is a very lucrative business, and it’s not outrageous to imagine high class equipment boutiques would be found at major cities that featured individuals able to provide desired equipment in an expedient manner, especially if your system of choice features methods to do so
I like the idea of “high class boutiques.” A place where grubby adventurers rub shoulders with nobility is a nice plot point.
In my current game, i made a decision early on to homebrew magic items that specifically fit a particular character, and by the end of the game they might have two or MAYBE three of these, which would be gained by sacrifice and long journeys. Other than that, only the richest and most powerful people would have any, and those would be treasured family heirlooms, like the heartcleaver, a vorpal sword that hits hearts instead of heads and belongs to the king. This was the single largest worldbuilding mistake I have ever made. I soon discovered that magic items are one of the best ways to reward players, and i had cut them off from myself. I still regret it.
That sounds like two different issues: worldbuilding on the one hand and gameplay on the other.
What was your system? What was your campaign style? It strikes me that you might be able to have your cake and eat it too by differentiating between “artifacts” on the one hand and “common magic items” on the other. Scaling items offer on design solution:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/scaling-magic-items/
You can still have rings of deflection and cloaks of resistance, but they players are going to be more invested in their one special item at the end of the day.
We are playing 5th edition, and there’s a lot of travel and diplomacy in the party’s future, with plenty of random encounters and side quests to spice things up. The issue I have is that a worldbuilding decision I made earlier negatively affects the gameplay of now. They’ve already been to the two biggest human cities in the world, but I think I can implement your idea when they reach the hidden elven capital.
This is part of what I enjoy about Pathfinder 2e’s item levels and rarity. I can easily say that a settlement has common-rarity items up to level X, and for items other than that you have to discuss with the GM. It helps me to allow a number of items without needing to figure out methods to introduce everything each character would need – while also sectioning out a group of items that will appear more “special” since they won’t be easily available on store shelves. It also helps that crafting requires formulas, so taking a crafting feat doesn’t instantly mean that every item is suddenly accessible within roughly 4 days.
Also have to say that I ALWAYS run automatic bonus progression, as to try to avoid the mandatory magic items issue by making certain bonuses a part of player progression.
On the comic itself, shouldn’t the “WTF” in Street Samurai’s eyepiece be mirrored? We shouldn’t be able to read it; she should be able to read it.
Don’t know why that stuck out to me …
It’s a two-way lens. She gets actually-useful info on the inner surface, while the outer surface is used primarily for shitposting on reddit.
In my 3.5 and PF1e house rules, I change “Weapon Focus” and similar feats to apply to ALL weapons, and I generally say that if you have the resources to buy an item, and you’re in an area where someone or something is selling your target item(s), it’s available. Some of this is GM discretion, but it’s mostly, “You can shop now!”