The Skyrim Defense
OK gang. Just to make sure we’re all on the same page, here are the shenanigans of Skyrim. Got it? Good.
It has become a truism in tabletop gaming that “this hobby isn’t like a video game.” We’ve got to say that to one another because, if you’re anything like me, you spent your first ever game of D&D talking to random bar patrons. I can’t imagine where I got that idea from.
It’s important to remember that, for newcomers especially, Tabletop Role-Playing Games (TRPGs) are an unfamiliar genre. Not everybody has the benefit of Laurel’s experience, growing up under the table as her dad’s group lobbed Robotech missiles at one another. We’re swimming in a vast ocean of media, surrounded on all sides by film and television and social eating Twitch streams. Is it any surprise that newcomers rely on what they know when they first get behind the wheel of a Level 1 character sheet? For many gamers, trying to emulate a Computer Role-Playing Game (CRPG) at the table is an inevitable first step. As veterans of the hobby, we should make sure that’s a step through an open doorway rather than into a brick wall.
Remember: None of this comes naturally. You pick up genre conventions by dint of slow experience, more so in TRPGs than other forms of media. The fragmentation of the hobby—every group having its own micro-culture—means that one game of get-your-feet-wet D&D Adventurers League looks nothing like your buddy’s fancy new Dungeon World campaign. For some of us, the cheeky shenanigans of “put a bucket on the guard’s head and steal some stuff” may be hilarious hijinks. For others, it’s an unwelcome immersion-breaker. But what its’ not, and what you shouldn’t let it become, is a reason to shout “bad wrong fun!” like you’re a freaking body snatcher.
Question of the day then. Have you ever encountered TRPG newcomers who tried to treat a pen and paper session like a CRPG? How did they deal with the culture shock? How did you? Let’s hear it in the comments!
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That’s never really happened to me, I haven’t really played with new people except for when I was new as well, and me and my little brother were just thrown in a dungeon with little context by our also new DM when i was around 13. Something that I may have done in my first session in 8 years in my first game of pathfinder that was sorta like that was that when we, officers in the town guard, are supposed to investigate and potentially capture a crime boss, you should probably not just cut down the door, turn the guy behind it into red mist, and then run a rampage through the building without any due process. That was probably not a good idea for my guy. He probably got off a bit easy though because another player crashed the mayors airship to capture the crime boss as he ran away hopped up on alchemy, so he ended up getting the brunt of the mayor’s anger.
You don’t have to not be a murder hobo. You just have to be not the most murder hobo.
Yeah, but unfortunately for my guy, the mayor still didnt like him because the mayor was racist against goliaths, as such, while captain canada’s brainwashing into captan puerto rico happened first due to the property damage and civilian deaths caused by the airship accident, my character wasn’t too far behind. It was this campaign that made me despise will saves, as i failed everyone of them early, and then when my allies tried to break me free of them, i rolled high to resist their attempts to free me for a good 6 or 7 rolls. It all turned out well in the end though, except for captain canada.
off topic but related: i recently downloaded Neverwinter for xbox which applies 4e mechanics to an mmorpg. surprisingly it works and is fun for me since IMO said mechanics aren’t fun/usable for a TRPG. Also tried playing DDO which applies 3.x mechanics to an MMO and had same experience w/ table top, too complicated but it does have this cool thing where each time you take an action such as attacking, an d20 is rolled onscreen.
Back on topic: The new players I’ve had that come solely from CRPGs are usually bewildered at 1st by the numerous things that you can do and things that aren’t automatically taken care of for you in a TRPG as they are in the background of a CRPG
Could I get some examples?
calculating and tracking odds, bonuses, amounts for attack/damage, ability checks, save throws, HP, AC, available resources, etc. in video games, the game engine takes care of all the math and most management for you. One of the perks of 5e is less fiddly math and management.
For the most part in TRPG’s if you can think it, you can do it while in video games you’re limited to what the creator’s programmed and what character t=you created. Ex: in most MMOs only rogues can stealth or pick locks while in trpgs anyone can pull it off or that cleric type characters are healbots.
Had one really memorable newbie join us when we were 1st learning 5e who was basically a 12yrs. old That Guy (invited cause a friend of a friend and he expressed interest at a time where not alot of table top gamers/oppurtunities around my local) that played Lawful Stupid Paladins or Chaotic Stupid Bards. He kept forgetting to declare that he’d be using divine smite during his attack or that spellslots were expended when doing so. He literally thought it was an auto-cast ability. He’d also throw tantrums when a non rogue would do rougey things or our cleric wasn’t healbot cause that wasn’t how things were done in other rpgs. Thankfully he rarely ever plays with us anymore
No I never,..! Okay i Confess. That was me. A loooooooooong Time ago. In my very First Tabletop RPG (Star wars RPG), i played a Trandoshan Soldier on some sort of Space station. I was very Video Game like. I am the only one to make the Perception roll to notice some strange People. (Terrorists). I walk up to the “HAVE YOU BEEN LOKKING AT ME? EYY?” i basically bully them, but let them go.
After that there is the Terrorist attack. Full Auto Laser Gun oh yeah! Superior Officer adressing me after the Battle: “Why did you kill Civilians Soldier?” Me: “Well,… they were in the Way.” I tried to loot and eat my Enmies, i mouthed off to my Jedi superior, and so on.
I am much better now! I still often play Chaotic Crazy Gun Guys. But if i do now it’s totally in Character, explained with backstory and everything 😛
I’m just picturing your guy as an old fashioned side scroller beat-em-up protagonist. If a haunch of meat appears on-screen, you just eat it to regain health!
*Jedi superior looks on in horror*
Strangely enough, the majority of bucket over head tricks worked in our games (although there were special circumstances). For example, in one campaign there were two skeleton guards we deducted were ordered to attack anyone they see (other than the master ofcourse). So with a bit of hidden telekinesis, we put buckets over their heads and then continued on our way past them. Ofcourse, one could argue that since skeletons don’t have “eyes” they cannot be blinded, but strangely enough one of the few things that undead do not have explicit immunity to (according to the Undead type or Universal Monster Rules) is blindness. Also as mindless creatures, they wouldn’t remove the bucket without being ordered to do so.
That’s actually really clever. It’s a solid meme AND good tactics. I award you full style points and +100 bonus XP.
What’s interesting to me is that you managed to make a video game trope work in the context of the TRPG game world. That implies a deep understanding of both settings and their tropes. I think that new players lack that understanding, and so get confused when their CRPG shenanigans come off poorly.
I’ve read/heard a lot aboot players trying to game resting. That inspired me to make a short campaign where the players get stuck in the Grey Wastes of Hades. You don’t wan’t to take long rests there. (DMG pg. 63)
OPTIONAL RULE: VILE TRANSFORMATION
At the end of each long rest taken on the plane, a visitor must make a DC 10 Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature gains one level of exhaustion, which can’t be removed while the creature remains in Hades. If the creature reaches six levels of exhaustion, it doesn’t die. Instead, the creature permanently transforms into a larva, whereupon all levels of exhaustion afflicting the creature are removed. A larva is a miserable fiend that retains the facial features of its previous form but has the body of a fat worm. A larva has only a few faint memories of its’ previous life and the statistics in the larva stat block. Hades is crawling with larvae. Night hags, liches, and rakshasas harvest them for use in vile rituals. Other fiends like to feed on them.
Optional rule: Psychic Dissonance:
At the end of each long rest spent on a plane of incompatible alignment (Good players on an evil outer plane or the inverse) make a DC10 Con save or get a level of exhaustion.
The Shadowfell despair rule can also apply there since it’s a colossal shithole.
OPTIONAL RULE:
SHADOWFELL DESPAIR
A melancholic atmosphere pervades the Shadowfell. Extended forays to this plane can afflict characters with despair, as reflected in this optional rule.
When you deem it appropriate, though usually not more than once per day, you can require a character not native to the Shadowfell to make a DC 10 Wisdom saving throw. On a failure , the character is affected bydespair. Roll a d6 to determine the effects, using the Shadowfell Despair table. You can substitute different despair effects of your own creation.
SHADOWFELL DESPAIR
d6 Effect
1-3: Apathy. The character has disadvantage on
death saving throws and on Dexterity checks for
initiative, and gains the following flaw: “I don’t
believe I can make a difference to anyone or
anything.”
4-5: Dread. The character has disadvantage on all
saving throws and gains the following flaw: “I am
convinced that this place is going to kill me.”
6: Madness. The character has disadvantage
on ability checks and saving throws that use
Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, and gains the
following flaw: “I can’t tell what’s real anymore.”
It’s not a place you want to linger.
The long rest is a solid mechanic, but it cane easily become as gamey and weird as Elder Scrolls style resting when players try and abuse it. The bit about only gaining long rest benefits once per 24 hours helps, but your optional rules definitely give it that extra disincentive.
If players try to “Game” the mechanics, I will punish them with those mechanics they hold so dear. People need to give the outer planes in the DMG.
I don’t think I ever had to deal with the CRPG mindset – back from when I started playing TRPGs, they always felt more like the childhood games I played with my brother. Toys, action figures, lego “maps”… and, essentially, roleplay. We were always more keen on staying and inside rather than going out and doing sports or whatever, so it seems fitting that we would start playing TRPGs without even knowing what those were at the time!
It was Weapons and Warriors for me. Nothing beats shooting plastic dudes with toy guns.
Interestingly, I recently found out that was the randomization used by some of the oldest wargames that are the distant ancestors of D&D.
I don’t know, for me both CRPG and TRPG have intermixed over time. Neither are the same, there always are differences. So i return the question. Have anyone tried to play a CRPG like a TRPG.
Well my father-in-law once tried to organize an in-character poetry slam in Thunder Bluff in WoW. I think that counts.
Yeah i too think it counts. Now i wonder how that business ended, poetry and taurens, and orks, are not things i associate. Unless a forsaken get in it, forsakens sure make very goth romantic poetry. 🙂
As I recall, nobody came. That was about the same as my last IRL poetry slam, so maybe it was some secret next-level RP rather than a failed event.
I’ve always wanted to get my PNP on, but have never found a group. I love CRPGs due to games like Baldurs Gate & Planescape. My only experience of playing D&D with other people comes from a Never Winter Nights (NWN) roleplaying server, called Avlis. It’s based on a homebrew setting, the original guys who set it up used, and is still going 10 years on with loads of mods. We have regular DMs but they can’t be there all the time. This isn’t a bad thing as It can lead to some fun spontaneous roleplay experiences between players. Like PNP its all about character focused interactions & questing. If anything, the experience you describe above applies even more here as players have to play a game online AND leave behind their gaming preconceptions. We certainly get quite a whole mix like the ‘Party’ above!
To my shame, I’ve never been behind the wheel of a D&D CRPG. You’ve got me curious now: How do PNP gamers misapply their IRL experiences in Never Winter?
We don’t have problems with PNP players, they get it. It’s probably more just ‘new players’ finding their feet. The engine is based on D&D 3.5 but due to all the expansions from the core game, NWN has a leaning towards epic characters. Newbie characters and lower level play can be a bit frustrating, as it’s a little unforgiving if you die. It’s a common thing for new players to get power envy and focus on just grinding. I totally get that, but it can take months to reach epic if you’re a casual player. To discourage just trawling a dungeon by yourself, and help the casual player they’ve programmed in XP cap bonuses to people grouping up. And really, though it’s gotten a lot easier to level up now, there’s always going to be a tension between GRINDING and RPING for people. After all, it’s the journey that counts. Once that XP bar is maxed out at max lvl, what do you do? How can your character grow and change if you can’t stack more levels on? They’ve also got a ‘remort’ option for you to relevel your characters to help portray this. Of course, for some gamers, this means their ‘perfect’ build is never complete. I mainly play a grumpy wild mage wizard, which isn’t the most optimal build (especially when accidentally turning yourself into a cow or blowing up your friends), but it is a hell of a lot of fun. But some gamer gamers do get annoyed when I get a wild surge and dispel the whole group just before a big fight. Whoops!
Didn’t talking to bar patrons to get quests originate in tabletop though? And besides, in most crpgs the relevant patron will be marked with an exclamation point over their head, so it won’t be random.
Oh sure. It’s just that my awkward teenage self literally walked up to some nameless farmer trying to enjoy an afternoon ale and asked for quests. When he looked at me with confusion I moved on to the barmaid. It was not my finest hour.
And they’re due back in court later the same day for breaking all of the pots and barrels in town
I have a feeling we may reuse this courtroom scene a couple of times. 😀
If you have one single noob at the table, try asking what video games they’ve played. Some of them encourage roleplaying more than most campaigns I’ve played, and I can name plenty that were more willing to put up with my stupid plans that somehow worked.
I don’t remember all that happened related to the current topic in this example, but I’ve have had that experience when testing DnD 4e with a beginners’ campaign. All besides me, including the DM, came from videogames, and even though 4e it is the closest to videogames, it went badly.
We were three PCs and I used a Rogue-alike. It was a one room, one encounter campaign, with nothing in between them.
First room, and each charge to the closest guy alone even if that meant being outnumbered, only swinging their weapons and not paying attention to the environment, while i look around and use the big brazier full of oil to lit on fire two goblins and grab some things that seemed useful. They were quite damaged so use a rest.
I try to teach them to use the environment to their advantage and that i am the one that hs to be in charge of exploring because of my skills and they should wait till i give the ok if not bad things will happen, and i proceed to look through the keyhole of one of the two exits and the DM tells me there is a white dragon, so i inform them in character that its better to not go that way, as we were lvl1, and out of character that there is the saying ”never make a deal with a dragon” and white dragons are not good guys at all. They accept it after a good round of talking but still wanted to attack it … sigh
We go to the other room and they charge again before letting me explore what looked clearly like a puzzle (a man sized chess board), waking up every construct in the room. We TPK very fast.
The session ends and one of them moans to me why, as i was so experienced, did not clear the encounter, to which i answered: this is not a videogame, if someone does something really bad, there is almost nothing a single lvl1 PC can do.
While we tried to explain it a bit more (the third player knew a bit of what was to be expected even if he still tried to shoot and cast in close combat and never moving from the place as he was used to do in Diablo2, so he helped with it a bit), unfortunately he did not get it and there was no further sessions as he became frustrated because it wasn’t like he thought.
Another case, many years alter and with another group, was when a PC i mentioned before that was in and out of character a Kender, insisted that i had to roll to see if my character liked a prank the character has pulled. In this case we knew it was impossible to reason with this person so it did not go further and nothing else happened.