Utility Shot
Imagine for a moment that you’re DMing for Arcane Archer. You’ve just explained that there’s a dendrophobic clan of dwarves willing to pay good coin for clearcutting assistance. The PC seems willing to give it a shot, and so he strolls up to his first tree. Everything is hunky-dory until—without fail—we arrive at the question. It’s a question with many variations, but one you’ve heard countless times before if you’ve ever sat behind a DM screen.
“Can I use my archery instead of Profession (woodcutter)?”
Now the answer to that question is going to vary by DM. Some will say, “Sure! Rule of cool!” Others will say that no, that’s obviously not possible. You might as well chop down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring, and besides which you’re infringing on the Profession (woodcutter) skill. My own tactic is to narrow my eyes, lean back in my chair, and say, “How exactly would that work?”
Now I don’t think that there’s a particular best practice here, and the response will vary with the situation. I’m curious about thought processes rather than answers though, and I’d like to hear how you guys would handle these situations in your own games. So what do you say we run a quick quiz in today’s comments? Explain how you would rule on the following situations.
- Shooting down trees with arrows
- Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple
- Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device
- Crafting a length of rope with Survival
I’m hoping that we can gain a little perspective (and maybe some useful new DMing techniques) with one another’s help. So if you’re up for it, let’s put on our collective DM hats and make some rulings down in the comments!
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No, no, no, and maybe.
Shooting down trees with arrows: I don’t know about Pathfinder, but D&D 3E was very clear that some kinds of attacks are ineffectual against certain objects. Cutting a rope with a club is one example, and shooting a door with arrows is another. If they insisted, I’d look up the hardness and hit points per inch of wood, figure out the diameter of the trees in question, and let the dice do the talking, with arrows doing half damage because I’m generous.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple: No, there’s a rule for that already. Roll CMB.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device: There’s a clue in the name of the skill. Now, this one’s a bit tricky, because there’s no Piloting skill in Pathfinder, and if there are motorized vehicles in the game, there should be a skill for them. I’d let someone roll Dexterity untrained, if they were able to get the thing started. Maybe Disable Device to figure out how it worked.
Crafting a length of rope with Survival: Survival is one of those very broad skills. I’d certainly let someone make enough rope to build a simple shelter or trap with Survival. It wouldn’t be the same quality as the hemp rope you buy in town, though.
Weirdly, the PF subsystem for piloting varies by vehicle:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/vehicles/
Insofar as the alchemical dragon uses Knowledge (arcana), I’m wondering what a “use magic device” vehicle would even look like?
Since Use Magic Device seems to involve channeling your thoughts into the item or thereabouts I would guess a UMD vehicle would be a “put your hand on the control orb and think really hard about what you want it to do” type of thing. Which means it is probably best reserved for giant magic-based robots.
I want to watch a party argue over who is and is not drift compatible.
I quite like the fact that Handle Animal can be used to drive an animal-drawn vehicle. It gives that skill a bit of extra utility, and really, far more people (of a non-adventuring persuasion) are going to use Handle Animal for controlling carts and wagons than for taming griffons or whatever.
My own answers to the questions posed would be:
Shooting down trees with arrows – No. (under the assumption that the player didn’t have some sort of magical power allowing it, merely high damage would not be enough. In certain more gonzo games I might allow extremely high damage to shatter huge chuncks off trees, but those games would be characterized by the player having actual superpowers).
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple. – nope, that’s not what acrobatics does or represents use your skill at grappling instead. (again assuming it’s not some strange class feature or something the player has, but I’d probably have forbidden those when they took them because of how much easier it is to get a skill to a very high number compared to your CMB)
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device – nope, not what Use Magic Device represents. (Even for a magical semi truck I’d expect it to either be something that doesn’t need rolls to control once activated or something that used something different than Use Magic Device. Similar to how you in a modern setting could use a mechanics skill to hotwire a car but would still need to use a driving skill to actually drive it).
Crafting a length of rope with Survival – Maybe, it would depend a bit on the circumstances but a simple short-ish rope that don’t have to carry too heavy a lift (say a person and their gear rather than a cartload worth of wares) does sound like the sort of thing an outdoorsy type could maybe do.
The underlying logic for my decision here is, barring special powers, to look at what each “skill” represents in the world and asking myself whether than could achieve the relevant task, while also considering if skill at the task at hand is specifically represented differently in the system.
I tend to start from a PF perspective myself, but I’m interested in 5e’s logic on Acrobatics, which allows you to wriggle out of a grapple using Acrobatics or Athletics, but only initiate with Athletics. It seems like they’re representing “escape artist” there, but that’s just head canon on my part.
While escaping from a grapple can be done just by being slippery and wiggly, actually keeping hold of something is a strength move. Full stop. Even with pressure points and shit, you still have to successfully push against resistance to hold on to a dude.
That puts it pretty firmly into STR(athletics) territory, though if a PC talked fast enough, I might let them use STR(acrobatics). And they’d have to come up with a new flashy explanation on how they were going to make acrobatics work every time they tried it.
I dunno man. I remember my wrestling coach talking about high-level lightweights taking on much larger dudes. You need some baseline amount of strength, but after that leverage and body mechanics come into play.
I can also think of at least one example where Intelligence is the relevant stat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGCMfprPJoA
Oh dear, Druid will be quite upset when she learns of her hunting companion’s/boyfriend’s/mate’s deforestation efforts. Which arrows let him calm down an enraged girlfriend?
Suffice it to say that the name of that arrow is the punchline of an upcoming Handbook of Erotic Fantasy comic.
And for once, its not the archer that yells the arrow’s intricate name aloud.
Shooting down trees with arrows – I mean, mundane arrows? No way. Magic exploding arrows? I suppose “blown to zog” counts as cutting them down.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple – as you mentioned, “How exactly would that work” would be important to ask. I can certainly imagine how, but personally I need to know how the plan intends for it to work. Doing some luchadore style hurricana maneuver, sure, but just using Acrobatics to overpower and wrestle with an enemy? Not going to work.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device – This is actually a bit of a pet peeve of mines when the technology guide came out for pathfinder. Fine, a lot of these high tech sci-fi stuff can’t be operated with our usual magical skills. But literally nothing else does. You need a feat to even be allowed to try and study tech. You’d think a knowledge skill like engineering would suit, but nah, this is fantasy wood and cart engineering, not gas engine stuff. Anyways Use Magic Device is more about using one’s force of personality to brute force magic devices, and a winning smile isn’t going to start your truck.
Crafting a length of rope with Survival – Entirely doable. Survival is about surviving in any environment, not just tracking footprints and finding food. You might say “but wouldn’t that step on the toes of rope makers”, well Perception can also be used to spot footprints and food. Does that make Survival completely invalidated as a skill? No, it does not. This might be a controversial statement, but there are different ways to accomplish the same thing. You don’t need to specialize to achieve a specific result.
Can you link me to the relevant “use magic device on tech” rules? I couldn’t hunt them down myself, and it could be instructive as precedent.
Unfortunately, this was a GM decision when I still played for the Latbfinder Society. I was using my Bard for a technology game and had hoped that Use Magic Device would’ve allowed me to operate a console. Unfortunately the only way I could use any skill for it would be to have the Technologist feat which I can only get if I had the splatbook and completed a module where the feat is actually leagal for me (it’s otherwise not legal to have even if I had the book).
I like the stuff given by the technology guide, but it’s all so damn exclusive you’d think it was a plot by a counsil of wizards to limit the accessibility and power of those without magical skills to compete with them. I had half a mind to join the Technic League if doing so wouldn’t kick me out of the Society. If nothing else this sort of “can’t just let anyone use it” attitude towards technology is typically the default stance for GM’s Incorperating tech stuff. And this is regardless of your class or occupation btw; a dwarves runesmith who makes golems is just about as capable of handling tech as a orc savage who can’t even speak a coherent language.
Because it’s technology and no one is suppose to have any fineenral understanding of them.
Shooting down a tree – only if they shoot with the force and speed of a railgun or minigun. Or the arrows are fire/laser arrows. Or they have a pulley system activated with an arrow.
Acrobatics to grapple – as part of a “fall on top of enemy / reduce fall damage” check? Or as part of a “running start” jump where the landing is next to an enemy, maybe as a bonus to the roll.
UMD to pilot a truck – no real way, unless you have a magical wand/wondrous token of semi-truck control.
Survival to make a rope – Isn’t this already part of the check? You hunt with it, make traps, make shelter. You don’t need craft(weaving/rope making) to make a rope unless you want to use it for profit. Survival would also include the gathering of the required materials (rope fibers) from the wild.
Power levels are a weird thing. D&D is a different game than Exalted, but I remember the way my buddy’s eyes lit up when I described flagstones melting into a puddle of melted slag on a miss in his first combat. Imagine starting a D&D game by telling players that they’re heroes of legend, and that their actions are a cut above normal mortals. I wonder if the rest of the system could bear that style of play?
Arrows vs Trees? Depends. I’d probably come up with a rather high DR against piercing and bludgeon and give them a fairly high amount of Hit Points. So magical arrows, for example imbued with fire, would probably eventually take them down, but you’d take a while for just one tree. Non-magical arrows would need to do a lot of damage to even damage the tree. If the player has some sort of magic superbow, I could consider it. Otherwise:
“You’ve been shooting at trees all day long. Your practice has gained you a (minor) complimentary XP reward, but you’ve got a sore arm (-1 to attack and damage, on a nat 1 attack roll you hurt yourself for 1d4 points) for (5-con mod)d12 hours and haven’t come any closer to actually damaging any of the trees. As you go to recover what arrows are salvageable, you think you hear a low, deep laughing. Your dedication has imbued the forest with the ability to mock.”
Acrobatics for initiating a grapple? Sure, if you’re going for a takedown. A standing RNC or clinch is a matter of athleticism, but trying to elegantly rob your opponent of balance in order to take them down is something I could see happening, especially if they can describe their process and attempt and it sounds somewhat reasonable and cool, or at least very possible, if not cool.
UMagicalD for NonmagicalD? No. The Warhammer 40k Rpg has operate as an Agility based skill, and that’s where I’d get my homebrew vehicle operation rules from too.
Survival for crafting rope? I’d allow searching for vines that can be converted into ropes, or for searching for traces of civilisation that may have left ropes behind. Crafting one out of vines or materials would be a dexterity check, in my opinion, so I’d ask for both, if you don’t have materials. But the crafting itself wouldn’t be Survival, it would be an unmodified Dex, maybe proficiency if you’ve got practice.
I’m imagining Legolas “grappling” the cave troll by running up its back.
After reading some more of the others’ replies, I should probably note that I’m a bit of a late bloomer: While I got somewhat familiar with 3.5/Pathfinder, I never played it, and only really got into the hobby in 5e. So my opinion is based on DnD 5e and on the FFG series of WH40k d100-based RPGs.
Cutting down trees with arrows? Sure. The average tree (in Pathfinder) has 150 HP and hardness of 8 (better hope they aren’t colossal trees like redwood, which have 500 HP). Did I mention that we are keeping track of ammunition? The arcane archer has imbue arrow, which with the right spells can really cut down on time.
To grab hold of a creature, sure. I mean generally I allow either a Reflex save or Acrobatics check to catch oneself if they would fall of the edge of something. But to outright grapple? No. Not unless they got it via a feat, spell, or ability. My main issue with substituting grapple checks with Acrobatics is that skill modifiers can far outpace CMB.
Use Magic Device instead of Profession (pilot)? Sure. I mean Clarke’s Three Laws can sort’ve go both ways (depending on setting ofcourse). I however would impose a penalty (probably of -5) to the UMD for not being the primary skill to use.
Survival instead of Craft to make rope? Yes, but you can only create hemp rope. Unlike in the UMD/Profession scenario above, I wouldn’t even impose the penalty to the check. Like really, you can find/make food and shelter, but cant make a rope out of vines, grass, and other vegetation? How are you making snares to catch food, or building a shelter? So yeah, definitely allowing Survival to make rope (but only hemp, not any of that fancy lightweight shit).
I’ve heard 0e players grumble that the Thief ruined the game. You could do anything you could imagine before, but suddenly you had to have specific skills to attempt certain actions (e.g. pick-pocketing). There’s this weird tension between “use your abilities to attempt creative actions” and the design space that available in the form of feats. I’m wondering if you can ever have the latter without infringing on the former.
Normally I consider myself reasonable when it comes to solving things creatively; Probably why I am such a huge fan of the Skill Challenge Handbook (by Everyman Games). But, substituting CMB with Acrobatics is just problematic. I mean a level 1 human who goes all out in optimizing Acrobatics can have a +18 (1 rank, +3 class skill, +5 Dex mod, +2 trait, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Acrobatic, +2 masterwork item) modifier, say nothing of spells or magic items that can push this number further.
On the other hand, there are some occasions where I hate that paizo mechanicized a specific aspect or rule. For example, a lot of skill unlocks could’ve just been new uses for X or Y skill, but now require a feat. Another example is that Ultimate Wilderness included a feat that allows you to make animal noises; are you telling me that people cannot meow or whistle, or bark without a specific feat?
I’m actually going to be DMing my first ever game (5e) in about a week, so seeing people’s answers to this has got me particularly interested.
I’m generally of the opinion that if a player can coherently explain why they should use a different skill then I’d be open to letting it happen. For these cases:
Shooting down trees with arrows: I can’t see a sensible argument for this with a mundane bow and arrow. Various enchanted or explosive arrows might work though. They might also have consequences.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple: Yeah, I can see a few ways a player could describe what they were doing in such a way to use acrobatics to grapple. That said I hadn’t considered Vegetalss4’s point above that in Pathfinder it’s much easier to get high acrobatics that high CMB, so I would be wary of a player abusing this with very generic reasoning.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device: It’s unlikely that you could convince me to allow this, mostly because UMD is a CHA based skill, and I would expect working out how a vehicle operates to require an INT skill and actually piloting it to require a DEX skill.
Crafting a length of rope with Survival: Yes, I think you could probably argue this one reasonably well. In 5e I might call for a Dexterity (Survival) check rather than a Wisdom (Survival) check though.
Congrats on taking the plunge! Don’t worry about getting things 100% right. Unless it’s a life or death moment just make a call, move things along, and hash it out between sessions. The other tip is to default to making the call in the player’s favor. When I first started out, I tried to do what I thought was fair and balanced at all times. Turns out you deliver a more satisfying experience when you make your players happy instead of trying to be correct.
I’m imagining a cheeky sorcerer pulling knobs and turning dials, then grinning down at some poor befuddled wizard as the machine roars to life.
“It’s not hard. Hear that engine purring? You just have to listen to her talk to you.”
Thanks for the tip dude. I could definitely be guilty of being a stickler for the rules, so I’m glad you’ve made me think about that.
Since it’s charisma based I think it would be like Fonzie operating the jukebox by confidently nudging it
If you fire as many arrows into the trunk of the tree as the number of times that the teeth of a chainsaw would hit wood while felling the same tree: that should be enough arrows to do it.
Okay, a simple “no” would’ve done just fine.
Personally, I usually head off shenanigans like that by giving my “the DM is absolutely going to use this against you in the future” smirk and then agreeing. They almost always suddenly find some reason why what they were going to try is a bad idea that wouldn’t work. I don’t even actually need to have any ways to use it against them (yet).
I do have one player who insists on carrying on anyway most of the time, but their ideas are usually sufficiently half baked that they don’t work anyway, even when their grasp of the rules or physics is sound.
I’m frankly curious on a number of counts.
How would you use “serrated arrow of the beaver” against the PCs?’
What half-baked plans has your player attempted?
Every time they’re in a ship? Enjoy getting your mast cut in half by an archer
Oh, I don’t know how I would, im just good at smirking on demand. The idea that theyre opening a can of worms they aren’t prepared to deal with is much more important than them actually doing so.
And the first plan that comes to mind is the time they tried to find a tower by flying up… and up… and up… until their character came close to passing out from lack of air.
Speaking as a 1st, 2nd, and 5th Edition D&D/AD&D DM:
Almost certainly no, but……. I did have a character who specialized in building demolition as an archer. She’d take days of studying to work out the precise angle and spot to shoot a structure with her longbow, and collapse it with a single arrow. So like I said, no. But there are exceptions.
Depends. If the character has been described as a ninja-like, dagger wielding gymnast, then sure. Anyone else (even a rapier wielding swashbuckler), no. In this case, it matters less what skills they’re proficient in and more what vibe their character is going for.
No. Driving a truck and using a magical device are entirely different fields of esoteric. A neurosurgeon is not more likely than I to successfully operate a nuclear submarine, nor is a nuclear engineer more likely than I to perform brain surgery.
Sure. I’d argue that the rope you produced is not up to the grade of store bought rope (ie it’s prone to failing at dramatic moments). ALWAYS BUY ROPE
— Context is key!
— What if the swashbuckler’s enemy was standing atop a coil of rope attached to a ship’s anchor?
— It’s weird to think, but if there was an alchemical engine inside of a magical semi-truck, and if you still had to figure out the esoterica of levers and knobs and keys, what’s the fictional difference between operating that and the non-magical version? Are you reaching out with your magical senses to grok the mysteries of the gear shift or something?
— Survival might be the poster boy for “broadly interpreted skill.” I’ve always appreciated it as an incentive for ingenuity.
*Indeed!
*Oooo, like getting your opponent’s foot caught in a loop of rope without them noticing and then getting pulled overboard by the anchor? I’d say that’s more of a sleight-of-hand/deception roll than acrobatics, cause it’s more about distracting them at the perfect moment than doing a backflip. But if you can argue you it, I’m willing to hear you out.
In the case of a normal semi with a magic engine, I’d say diagnosing the engine is a UMD-worthy check. Operating it though? I’d say that’s just a raw intelligence check, because the associated skill (operating machinery) doesn’t exist in your normal D&D world. If it *does exist, then I’d probably homebrew a couple skills associated with technology. Either way, I’d rule UMD isn’t something that can be used to manipulate tech.
Bonus Question: Have you ever heard of the old “nuclear weapon vs monster-immune-to-normal-weapons/radiant/fire” debate? How would you rule on that?
Oops, didn’t realize * messes with the formatting
I would rule that the monster has developed a malignant tumor thanks to radiation. Its hair falls out and it’s got 1d3+1 weeks to live.
I’d also require immunity to disintegration, and possibly sonic effects as well since the bulk of it is a pressure wave
I tend to be a lenient DM, so my answers are usually not a flat “no” unless the players are being really stupid.
1: Can you somehow justify it? Unless they’ve got a really good explanation the answer is probably “Your arrow sticks in the tree, but otherwise does nothing”. I’m a firm believer that martials should absolutely be allowed to do inhuman feats you’d see from tales like Beowulf. If Magical people can do whatever because magic, then the mundane should truly allowed to be legendary in it’s own right.
2: In Pathfinder, no that’s what CMB is for. In 5e however, yes if you can justify how it’s happening or what your character’s fighting style is. I practice martial arts and I can certainly tell you that while strength is a major factor in keeping some holds, skills is FAR more important. At the least, I’d allow a Dex-based Athletics check.
3: I’m honestly going to say yes, but it’d be a much higher DC. My justification is that a profession skill would be actual knowledge of the vehicle, a knowledge skill would be being able to deduce what does what, and UMD would be the “press buttons blindly until something works”. The DC would also scale respectively.
4: Hell yeah, it just wouldn’t be as good as someone with an actual craft skill. Survival would probably be improvising a rope, so like tying clothing together or furs of animals to make a makeshift rope.
A fellow devotee of the “can you justify it?” philosophy. Hail and well met, good Hippy!
I can’t speak to the rest of the points but Acrobatics as grapple IMMEDIATELY made me think of the stereotypical girl martial artist head-scissor takedown (Black Widow from various Marvel movies) and now I want to design a Pathfinder style feat chain in 3 parts.
Black Widow Style, Black Widow Grasp, Black Widow Vise?
I dig that as a middle ground solution.
“No, I’m not going to allow that. But let’s write up some homebrew together and see where that takes us!”
goes back to figuring out ‘Extended Task’ rules for 5th edition D&D
Is “a lot” an accurate number? It takes “a lot” of bow shots.
The survival one seems obvious. While it shouldn’t allow you to make store quality rope it ought to allow you to make makeshift ropes by twisting like vines or roots or sstems or whatever together. Given more time and a higher check it should also allow you to make a more proper rope from scratch out of scrounged up animal or plant fibers, albeit not necessarily one as sturdy as one professionally made from optimal materials
This is semi-implicit in the part of the skill about hunting btw. Presumably you can make snares and stuff and presumably you will not always have store bought rope or twine
And if the DM says it’s not implicit, you can always make the snares first and then disassemble them to get the rope or twine, like Spongebob drawing a circle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmqsk1vZSKw
(BTW, is there any way for me to edit my posts so I don’t wind up triple-posting like this?)
I’ll have to chat with webmaster Laurel about adding that functionality. At the moment I don’t think you can edit.
But yeah, I threw the survival one in there mostly as a counterexample to the “there’s a feat for that so you can’t do it without the feat” crowd. You are stepping on a skill’s toes… right? So we have precedent for the same action being attached to more than one mechanic. So to what extent can you apply that thinking across the system?
“Explain how that works” or “explain what you are trying to do” are my go-to questions for almost all player plans. Even when it’s not weird, I figure that a bit more clarity will help me and the other players interact better with the plan.
When it is weird, I will usually try to accommodate it, because trying to use a skill, and then figuring out how it might work, feels like proper use of a character sheet.
My players know, however, that just because I have said, “you can try”, does not mean they can succeed. “The Rains of Castamere” is my DM theme song.
There is no sentence more frightening than “You can try.” In fact, I should probably use that as the punchline to a comic. Note to self and all that.
I’ll be honest, the last one is crucial to minimalist wilderness survival, and anyone familiar with survival training would also have some basic cordage knowledge. That’s one of those things that should be default as a part of the skill. Using string is necessary for one of the more efficient minimalist fire-starting techniques (the bow drill).
Sure, it might not be masterwork rope that you could climb with, but you could still make it. Survival should also cover all aspects of making a camp/hideout, as well as tracking and food-gathering.
I’d say Knowledges could also be one of the more versatile skills, and I’d really consider using them in many of the other skill checks.
Knowledge is an interesting point. Would you allow Knowledge (nature) to craft rope as well?
Shooting down trees with arrows
Maybe if you are lucky. Shooting arrows to a tree makes a little crack at least, shooting a hundred arrows can make a hundred cracks that make the tree fall down. So i use a D100, each shot i roll it, if the player gets a 00 or a 99 then he chops the tree down, otherwise he needs to repeat. That way the palyer can make what he wants in the most boring way possile, either he gets bored and use an axe or he insist and gets happy for his work. Win, win, either way.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple
Yes, of course you can. Many time in movies i have seen an almost naked women jumping and then using his legs to break a man neck. If i works on a movie it works on a RPG.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device
Like hell you will be able. >(
Crafting a length of rope with Survival
Depending on the materials and the situation. Using wines in the jungle or a desert island, yes it could be a matter of survival. Yes. Using your long princes hair to make a rope so the blue prince can rescue you of your tower. NO.
I am not so much of a DM, so i only think in the rules and the situation at hand and the players.
Ooh… That antagonistic take is interesting. You’re actively discouraging dudes trying to pull off cheesy maneuvers.
Do you worry at all that you’re harming creativity with that approach?
It is not about creativity or not… well, kinda it is. If i would be doing of DM my approach is fairly simple. Convince me and i allow it. Give me a good reason and i will make it legal. The player in the “Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device” example is ignoring the rules and he don’t give me any reason to allow it. A “non-magical semi truck” sounds like a modern vehicle so why he would use Use Magic Device? UMD is a magical skill for a fantasy world, the semi truck sounds like a modern vehicle, maybe is a campaign in which a adventure party ended in a modern day like world. I will allow the references to Jean Reno, i will even allow to try to use ride to maybe pilot the semi truck, but i will not allow use of Use Magic Device without a good reason. That is why i say “Like hell you will be able. >(“. What do i look like a pattern spider to him? Look i like a spider at all?
🙂
Shooting down trees with arrows:
Well, it depends. Are they just regular arrows? If so, no. I just don’t see it happening, no matter how precise you are, or how strong your composite bow is. Unless it’s a particularly young tree and a particularly hardy arrow, perhaps. Then again, I would allow a creative player to craft special arrows specific to certain situations, and perhaps one for woodcutting could work, if they can even vaguely explain it! Arcane Archer could be using some kind of super-enchanted force arrow that can certainly cut through a tree. (see: Dota2’s Windranger)
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple:
Not in Pathfinder, on the basis that There’s A Feat For That, it’s called Agile Maneuvers – I’m a big fan. Okay, not exactly the same, but I meant more in the sense that it allows you to use Dex. In 5E, I’d allow an Acrobatics check to grapple instead of Athletics for Monks, or anyone who uses dex for unarmed attacks.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device:
I mean… It’s right there in the name. UMD is all about understanding the intricacies of magic items and how to convince them you’re a magic person when you’re not actually (that kind of) a magic person. For driving and piloting, you need technical knowledge of mechanical devices, which is entirely different.
Crafting a length of rope with Survival:
I’d allow it, but it’d probably be a lesser quality rope, since I’d be assuming the PC is crafting it with roots, vines and the like. The reason I think this is okay is because crafting rope could be considered a part of hunting or camping, which is covered by Survival.
No, no, no, and yes.
That last answer is largely due to personal experience: I once watched a Hawaiian woman make rope out of the interior fibers from a coconut husk. It didn’t require anything but some coconut husks and her bare hands to accomplish, and the resulting rope was pretty dang strong.
In terms of game mechanics, I once sank an entire weekend into planning a campaign set in Stone Age Golarion, and wound up spending a long time thinking about the Survival skill. In the Stone Age, it’s your god skill. You can use it to find food, make shelter, make basic tools by banging rocks together, and more.
Incidentally anything DR based on metal is hella-scary when nobody has invented metalworking yet.
Shooting down trees with arrows is dumb and impossible. I could maybe justify it with something that does bludgeoning damage snapping a tree apart.
Acrobatics for grappling would work to nimbly wrap yourself around your opponent.
“Use magic device” isn’t a skill. There are rules for figuring out unfamiliar technologies in the DMG.
Survival for crafting rope would let you Macguyver one out of plants. I don’t know enough outdoorsy stuff in meatspace to know if that’d work, but as a rule if it’s something a boy scout does it’s a survival check.
High level character are on a different “scale” to normal people, capable of doing things that a real-life human could only dream of, and of surviving a 10-kilometre fall at least twice. If a player was sufficiently higher level, I would allow them to try shattering the base of a tree with one of their massive-damage arrows, but it wouldn’t be nearly as clean as a normal woodcutter’s axe.
Acrobatics… the player would need to describe how the planned to do this. If they do describe their method of doing things, then they can use a different skill for a check (I once had three players do three different skills for just one task!)
I would definitely allow Use Magic Device for the truck, using the “activate blindly” method. After all, a truck would essentially be a magic item in a fantasy setting, with the only way to figure out how to use it being intuition and careful guesswork.
I wood definitely allow survival to be used t o craft a length of rope; all crafting a rope from plants would be basic survival knowledge.
Shooting down trees with arrows
Honestly I’d probably look at the guy and ask “how the hell would you even do that?” Its a flat no for me.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple
Hmm. Tricky. Grapples are a tough thing to judge on in many ways because they are a different style of attack. I might be willing to modify the roll a bit, allow them a roll to gain a +2 on the checks, but probably not a direct roll.
The only time I can see it really working is if the target is flying. In that case, an athletics roll to grab on might work.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device
If they are Batman and have a magical control truck device then it makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise, depending on the setting. I have added some “advanced science” devices to my DnD games before, so if that was the case I might very well allow it. A wizard examines the truck and determines that the “golem” isn’t using the standard control array so using a Use Magical Device Check might be best to replicate experimenting with the controls.
In a modern setting, see batman above.
Crafting a length of rope with Survival
Sure. Vines tied together or just finding some naturally long vines to make rope would be fine by me.
Yes if you have arrows that do siege damage. Otherwise it will be better to use and ax.
Yes if they describe how they are doing it in a somewhat cool/believable way, like MMA monk style getting on their head and elbows to the face or some such.
3.Oh man yes if they do something like ghost rider it!
4.eh it is an okay replacement, but I would let them know it will at it’s best only be functional and might break easy.
Arrows vs Trees: Well, I mean, there’s a system for that in the rules already. Object hardness, hit points, damage, blah, blah. And as the GM who routinely has to deal with “The DC to pick this door is what? We cut the door down with the greataxe”, it gets a lot of use. By the way, my fellow Gms. Learn from a friend of mine’s mistakes. Never give PCs an Admantine Pick.
Grapple with Acrobatics: That’s not really what that skill does. If Escape Artist didn’t exist, I might allow it for escaping, but that’s as far as it goes. I’m not exactly an expert in flips or combat, but I’ve had some martial arts training and a break-fall is very different from knowing how to hurt people. Remember that with Skills, we are actually talking about things normal people can do.
Generally, I would probably say no on Trucks piloted with Use Magic Device, simply because of the caveat of it being an explicitly non-magical truck. I mean, it doesn’t react any way like Magic cause it’s not magic.
Survival is more of a general skill. It wouldn’t be a great rope, but depending on the use I might allow it. “We need to get down this rock face in a storm while gargoyles attack us”? Probably not. “I just want a snare to catch this rabbit? Sure.
As someone who runs Exalted and Pathfinder, all of this goes out the window if we are playing Exalted. Archers shooting down trees and stuff like that is the rule of the day when you speak of the heroes of the gods reborn.
Ok let’s see here.
#1) Normal arrows? I’d laugh and say no. Magic arrows or some reasonable feature that allows something that’s even conceptually close to a wide cutting edge or explosive? Sure, but it’ll probably make a mess. Also depending on what you use you may need to put out the fire.
#2) I see no real problem with that as conceptually “athletics” and “acrobatics” are the same skill being arbitrarily divided between two also arbitrarily different abilities in both cases solely for the sake of mechanical balance/diversity rather than being a realistic representation of reality. Contorting your body to put yourself into position to headlock your opponent from behind while tripping them when your were moments ago standing in front of them makes as much sense to me as using brute force and a bit of technique to twist their arm around their back. shrug
#3) Well that probably depends a bit on setting. Two settings come to mind as the most likely candidates. Both of which I’d say “probably no”.
Setting 1 being a modern setting with cars and magic. In which case UMD should already be distinctly separate from driving or already specifically cover it.
Setting 2 being you just conjured a semi-truck into a medieval fantasy world. In this case… the truck is a completely alien device to the things you use UMD for…. unless it isn’t because the setting has a lot of constructs or such. So I’d probably rule it under vehicle proficiency in 5e or something equivalent in 3.5/P. I don’t recall what that’d be? Make use rope? =P
In any case, in a broader general sense I’d probably say no just because either there’s something that should already vaguely apply or it’s so completely alien to anything you do that there’s no reason you’d be able to apply skills you know to doing it.
But…. there’s an exception to this. Which is if you have a magic device you could use as a proxy for controlling the vehicle with. I’d probably still have that operate at a penalty unless the character made a very high intelligence check to understand the relevant basics of how the truck worked.
But also I might just say no because I think UMD is a stupid skill and people should just be able to use magical devices without needing to worry if they’re going to randomly not work for them or how skilled they would need to be to trick an inanimate object into thinking they possess some quality they don’t have. Seriously, how does that even work? As soon as you can “hack” a magic object (without some other magical effect), its not really magical to me anymore.
#4) I mean…… yeah why not? The skill gets so little love why would you object? Sure I guess there are proficiencies and skills depending on system that maybe more specifically apply to that but…. I’ve never seen anyone take them? So unless it conflicts with another player specifically having taken that thing I’d just say yes. And if they did, I’d probably still say yes and give it a penalty (or give the other person a boost). Because…really. How do you know how to set up snares and such for hunting without… knowing how to make snares and such?
Cutting down a tree with arrows: A tree has about 150 hp, and resistance to piercing damage, but if you want to use a bow, I won’t stop you.
Initiating a grapple with acrobatics: From standing, you can roll with disadvantage. If you are dropping at them from the ceiling or something, you roll normally.
Use magic device to drive a semi truck: If anyone can figure out how a semi truck works, I figure the arcane trickster should be the best at it. This class feature sucks really bad anyways, so I am happy for an excuse to make it seem worthwhile.
Using survival to craft a rope: Yes, this is a task that fall under the survival skill.
Here’s how you initiate a grapple check with acrobatics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGETkQhHnSI
Acrobatics into grapple… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmPrGNMIguw
I wouldn’t strictly say no, but unless they’re doing something creative with it like stacking a ton of size buffs so that they are basically firing ballista bolts, it won’t be terribly effective, and they’ll likely be at it for a fair while.
They better have some damn good reasoning for it. If they just ask for it and don’t give a reasoning that actually fits into the principle of acrobatics, most assuredly not. If they do, I’ll give it a bit of thought, but they would likely have to maintain with athletics anyways (Once you’re past the initial stage, it is going to be very difficult to ‘maintain’ with acrobatics) and for that reason, I would likely say no.
They’re different principles. Use Magic Device is a charisma based skill because there’s a bit of a principle that even non-sentient weapons ‘want’ to be used and in a way try to impart how to use them to those who can use them. UMD is a way of getting them to tell you how to use them even when you’re not really supposed to be able to.
I’d allow it. The quality would be lesser than an equivalent check made by someone who had a tool set for making rope, but it fits into the principle well enough. However, if you wanted some really good rope, you better be trying to make them with some Weaver’s Tools or rough equivalent.
Cutting down a tree with arrows: They can absolutely do it. It will just take a long time and waste alot of arrows. Arrows will eventually chew through a practice target.
Acrobatics to initiate a grapple: Go for it! Depending on the situation I would warn them that if you’re trying not to be hit while doing it, the DC will be higher than normal.
Use magic device with “Alien” machinery: Might as well. I’d allow the roll but it would be a straight ability roll without bonuses and all others would get a negative modifier.
Make a rope with survival: Sure! It’s be of lesser quality and if anything goes wrong (higher DC checks), it will be because of that. I can make a rope out of strips of bark knotted together but will not be as strong as normal.
I just wanted to say that those of you who say you cannot use a bow to cut down a tree with arrows clearly haven’t seen some of the bows crafted by Jörg Sprave (creator of the Slingshot Channel on YouTube).
It is worth noting that while the materials could clearly be described as masterwork, they aren’t magical.
Shooting down trees with arrows
Eh, depends. It’s one of those “how would that work” moments, and if the pc wanted to sit there and shoot at the tree for the next hour and perma-lose about 10-20 arrows per tree, sure, knock yourself out. The dwarves won’t pay you though. They don’t pay bullsh%!ers.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple
I would ask them to describe it, and probably give them the classic “I’ll allow it THIS time” so as to not have them expect it. But let’s be honest, Black Widow is DEFINITELY using acrobatics for grapple. I doubt homegirl has a CMB that high.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device
What is the saying? Sufficiently advanced technology, yadda yadda? I’d say that if we are talking regular pathfinder or d&d, sure. It’s magic to them, and I feel like UMD is not “magically” using the device, but figuring out how a divice that can be activated IS activated. I’d say it is completely within the spirit of use magic device.
Crafting a length of rope with Survival
Depends, what are they crafting it from? I think it’s viable, but again, I’ll give them the old “I’ll allow it THIS time” (good grief I love that saying)
It occurs to me that allowing this kind of thing could go a long way towards resolving caster/non-caster power level disparities (except, perhaps, as applies to wizards specifically)
A sufficiently high Heal or Sleight of Hand check for example should allow you to do the trick from Temple of Doom (ie. where the villain just reaches in and plucks some guy’s heart out of his chest), effectively duplicating the Heart Ripper spell
Of course, you may run into the issue that skill checks are not limited to x per day. But you are right, I believe. GMs should make sure to be more lenient with non-casters. I feel magic is always “well it is what the spell says” or “because magic” but when a fighter wants to backflip off the dragon’s back and stab it on the way down people suddenly jerk back and go “now that doesn’t seem realistic!”
Shooting down trees with arrows: Maybe. If the player was size Colossal and using blunt arrows to simply knock them over.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple: No.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device: No.
Crafting a length of rope with Survival: Sure.
Your PCs are zapped into Mad Max world.
“I roll to drive the war rig!”
What the crap do you make them roll?
Knowledge Engineering, obviously. And a Perception check to avoid running into anything.
1) Shooting down trees with arrows – Nnnnmmmaybe, if they’re explicitly magical arrows? If it works at all, don’t expect it to be fast or efficient — the barbarian with the greataxe will do it much better than you can unless you have like exploding Fireball arrows, in which case what the heck are you doing using them on trees (unless you’re just trying to drop a tree on someone — that’s a totally valid use for a ‘splodey arrow).
2) Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple – To initiate a grapple, maybe, especially if you’re doing something like leaping onto a guy mid-parkour or pulling a Snowspeeder vs. AT-AT. Maintaining the grapple will require Athletics (or perhaps creative use of the Web spell, as my group’s ranger used).
3) Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device – No. There’s nothing magic for you to figure out — just a bunch of weird levers and knobs and this big wheel thing. Hope you figure out which bits to twiddle before you flatten something you care about (an Intelligence check might be in order).
4) Crafting a length of rope with Survival – Hmm, that’s a tricky one. Setting a snare definitely falls under Survival, and I would probably rule that Survival would cover making a snare out of local materials without having any rope on hand. Not sure I would allow making an item that would ostensibly be carried around and used later — if you can convince me, go ahead, otherwise I’d say Survival to gather materials then a Dex check to see how well you put the materials together.
I just found this. A feat in Pathfinder called Skilled Driver. It gives +4 to driving checks with a single vehicle. What exactly is being rolled will probably be in a section of rules somewhere.
Good find. That feat belongs to this subsection of rules:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/vehicles/
The actual “drive check” varies with the vehicle. Notably, both the “steam giant” and the “achemical dragon” use Craft (alchemy) or Knowledge (arcana). Whether or not that has any bearing on the semi truck is up for debate. Would knowledge (engineering) from the technological rules be a more sensible thing to invoke? And if so, do we apply the penalties implied by the technologist feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/technologist)?
What’s interesting to me is the impulse to use this kind of precedent as a means for making decisions. I think that’s a natural move to make, and an inclination that I share. In my copy of the core rule book, however, under the heading of “The Most Important Rule” in the introduction, you will find this instruction: “Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs.” Deciding how seriously to take that prescription varies between game master and game designer. Do we pay more attention to what the guys that wrote this stuff think, or to our own interpretations? There’s no one set answer for that question, just differing sets of strategies and thought processes. That’s why this kind of exercise is so interesting to me. It illuminates the different ways we all think and approach these problems of translating system into simulation.
It also sparks a lot of arguments of RAW versus RAI.
No.
No, but maybe we can come up with a custom feat chain.
Craft a length of hemp or silk rope? No. You have no idea how to do it. Put together a rope with vines that’s usable only once? Absolutely.
I like that compromise on Survival. 🙂
Just saw the quiz!
Shooting down trees with arrows
If the player can come up with a great rationale (like a magic arrow which is stated to work like a siege engine), then sure. As an internationally competitive archer myself, I’m also pretty comfortable arguing the practicalities when it comes to bows.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple
I would argue this one as a bonus, and ask the player to describe what they are trying to do. If they want to vault behind the target to grapple for example, that might help… but at the end of the day they still need to know how to grapple.
Piloting a non-magical semi truck with Use Magic Device
I don’t see this one. The specificity of “magic device” and “non-magic truck” tells me that there is a way magic vs non-magic items work.
Crafting a length of rope with Survival
Totally. Surely knowing how to make a rudimentary rope is a core survival skill? I would probably rule that the rope is weak and put some strain limits on it unless the character has a really high skill, though.
I think this might be the essence of the quiz. For my money, the real trouble is how we define “great rationale.” For example, just last session I had a player ask to use “create water” to dissipate fog. Now I’m no meteorologist, but even if we “create three gallons of water in the form of a heavy downpour,” that sounds like a highly suspect strategy to me. In fact, a quick google bears that out:
https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/why-doesnt-rain-wash-away-fog.html
I wound up giving her the benefit of the doubt though. There’s a careful balance between plausible, rule of cool, and game-breaking. Where you find that line is going to vary heavily by GM.
Now that said: How exactly would you go about shooting down a tree with a bow and arrow? I want to hear an expert opinion on this one!
Shooting trees with arrows: NO. I might allow cartoonish silliness if the genre permitted. Otherwise the best you’d get is perhaps poisoning the tree (roll Craft: Alchemy or Craft: Poison, and oh you also need Knowledge: Nature to figure out HOW to do it)
Grappling with Acrobatics: NO. That’s a feat, I think, Agile Manoeuvres, which lets you use Dex for CMB. Even high-flying luchas need to rely on Strength to hold onto their foes.
UMD on a Freightliner: NO. It would work as well as UMD on a trebuchet, and for all the same reasons: what magic are you actually interacting with? Note: MAGIC truck I probably would if the magic were some sort of self-driving.
Survival ropes: Maybe, but likely yes. It’s not going to be professional trust-your-cargo-on-the-ship rope in fifty-foot lengths but it should at least be not-die rope as long as local vegetation allows. (Think you can also make hide ropes but still hard to do.)
I ran into an interesting version of this in an evil game way back when. I was a half-giant grapple specialist, and I challenged the party’s monk to a sumo competition over a magic item. He tried to burn ki, give himself +20 to Acrobatics with High Jump, and jump the two of us out of the ring. It was a clever strategy, and reminded me of the time Samurai Jack threw a Scotsman using judo rather than throwing a stone.
It felt like a bad time arguing against that clever play, but by the same token, that’s not how shit works. Tough call for a GM in that scenario.
I always go back to 0e and the introduction of the Thief class. Some gamers swore it made the game worse, taking away the ability of other characters to try things like pick pocketing because “there’s a specific ability for that. You don’t have it.” Same thing with existing feats like Agile Maneuvers preventing other characters from trying weird maneuvers.
Cutting trees with arrows? Maybe if the arrows are magical enough. There are rules for damaging items in the DMG, so I’d look at the hardness and hit points for a tree, and tell the archer to roll damage. If they do enough damage to break the tree, then hurray for them.
Acrobatics for initiating a grapple: I’d allow against a not-actively-defending opponent, such as in a surprise round or against someone fleeing. But it’s just initiating the grapple (doing the running and jumping tackle-glomp), after that maintaining the grapple would use regular rules.
Use magic device vs. mundane truck. My understanding is that UMD is not a magical skill in itself, it’s just the character improvising various tricks until one sticks. I’d probably allow it for something like starting the engine (provided the engine doesn’t need something like a contact key the players lack), if the setting doesn’t feature a more appropriate vehicle skill. (Meaning, if this is a regular fantasy world and for some reason there’s a truck that has been brought here from some other dimension, and nobody can be assumed to have any idea how it works.) Driving is a different thing, though.
Crafting rope with survival: yes, if there are suitable rope-like materials that can be gathered, such as vines. The DC would depend on both how easy the materials are to work with, how easy they are to gather, and how common they are in the neighborhood to begin with.
I always liked the natural progression from cutting down trees with arrows to punching a river in half:
https://archive.org/stream/KeychainOfCreation001100/Keychain%20of%20Creation%20201-300#page/n70/mode/1up/search/271
With enough magic, etc. etc.
Using arrows to cut down trees: No, unless the player was both able to do an absolutely massive amount of damage and had some special explanation for how he was able to cut the tree in half instead of just shredding it.
Using Acrobatics to initiate a grapple: Yes, though possibly with a penalty depending on system and whether there is a specific “grappling” skill that represents grapple training.
Using UMD to drive a non-magical truck: No. There’s no magic to work with here, UMD won’t help any more than it helps with lockpicking.
Using Survival to make rope. Yes, though the rope won’t be a match for storebought quality unless you roll fairly well.
One day I’ll come back to this one and do a summary of “yes, no, maybe” for each of the answers. I suspect that everything has at least one of each.
Not unless you’ve got big arrows or a small tree.
Most systems have firmer rules for combat than anything else. Not something I’m fond of, but it’s the nature of the beast. Either point to the ability that lets you do that or come up with a REALLY good explanation.
What? Why would that be a thing? You don’t even activate trucks the way you do magic items!
Twine maybe.
Arrow vs Tree: Sure, but standard penalties apply. It’ll take a while.
Acrobatics for Grapple: Absolutely. Hasn’t anyone watched Black Widow? However I would still put this as “Acrobatics(Str)” move to keep at least a modicum of balance. As others have mentioned, “Athletics(Str)” would be needed for maintaining that grapple, but that still gives you decent shove options.
UMD vs Truck: might give advantage or some minor bonus for the skill check needed, since they are used to figuring things out, but the skill check still needs made.
Survival for Rope: Absolutely. Survival(Dex)
As a GM, I don’t have experience… but I’d probably do similar to you: If a player can make a fair argument, I’d allow it. Penalties and bonuses, as well as coming up with an appropriate-sounding DC, apply.
From a player’s side, to which I’d accept firm “no” in response as valid retorts, in order:
There’s slashing arrows, trees would follow standard rules for objects, and magic can amplify damages all over. Also could be creative with something like “bola arrows with razor-wire cable between them”.
I start the grapple by jumping and grabbing his head with my legs! Somersault over and grabbing arms along the way… really, any kind of description invoking Jackie Chan.
Indirect control of the truck with a magic tool is the easiest excuse on that one. Definitely a weak one, though.
“Vine rope” or “grass rope” are about the only things I can think… probably accepting penalties as “improvised” to keep the craft skill from being ignored