Advantageous Position
If there are any 5e rogues in your life, you may be familiar with a certain strain of argument. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before.
“But I’m standing slightly to one side of the golem. It didn’t know I was there!”
Or how about this one?
“I thought we were playing with the flanking rules?”
Or if you have the questionably-good fortune to party with an assassin, perhaps you’ve heard some variation on this one?
“I’m first in the initiative. That’s surprise, right? That’s an auto-crit, right?”
Look, I understand that rogues have plenty of incentive for weaseling every little advantage they can get. The thinking goes that, if you’re not activating your sneak attack every round, you’re not doing your job. And since DMs can arbitrarily “decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result,” a little rhetorical nudge is just good gaming. After all, when those all-important +Xd6 of damage are just like, your opinion man, it’s no less than your duty as a team player to cast suggestion on the man behind the screen.
In case Poe’s law is getting in the way here, I hope it’s clear that I don’t share this line of thinking.
I’m not just picking on the rogues of the world. The cloak and dagger crowd have more reason than most to whine at the GM, but they’re hardly the only players to go begging for bonuses. And that, of course, leads us to our question of the day.
What is the most egregious example you’ve seen of “greedy PC rhetoric?” Maybe your teammates demanded magic items? Perhaps level progression was unsatisfactorily glacial, and the multiverse demanded redress? Or was your friendly neighborhood murderhobo suffering the burden of “unfair” consequences? Sound off with your least reasonable player complaints down in the comments!
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Oh hell, did she not get Fighter or Wizard revived? Or is she being a touch overconfident?
Revival is expensive: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/the-worth-of-a-life
I remember one player complaining to the dm that he should be allowed to convince a wall that it was an illusion with persuasion if he got a nat 20.
The guy wanted to change reality by talking? Not reciting a spell, but by regular talking. Sheesh.
To be fair, that’s what spells with verbal components do.
That requires a 7th level Wizard spell: https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Subjective%20Reality
Or 6th level Bard, because let’s be real, the one trying this stuff is a Bard.
Also worth noting about that spell: “Choose one object, creature, or force“. Coolest, most overcosted fly spell ever if you choose Gravity.
Alternatively, removing the Strong Nuclear Force would… well, if you’re no longer affected by it, every single proton and neutron in your body is no longer held together, causing a massive explosion of quarks and hadrons. I don’t know what that would do exactly, but I get the feeling you might just free Rovagug (PF God of Destruction, trapped in the planet the setting is on) by accident by blowing up his prison. Assuming you haven’t broken reality enough to straight up destroy him as well.
That’s a hilarious spell.
My initial reaction to the gravity thing was, it says “Choose one object, creature, or force you can see…”, but you can’t see gravity so that won’t work. But then, what force can you see? And if there’s no force you can see then you must not need sight to cast the spell. Really not sure how to interpret that.
You can see the electromagnetic force
No actually, he was a paladin in this scenario, though once when I was a bard and he was a fighter, he tried to convince me and the dm that I should be able to do that.
I see a lot of things on-line about the rogue needing to be hidden to do a sneak attack. Nope, its right there in the ability description, you just need advantage or an enemy of your enemy to be standing near them, that’s pretty much it. That’s why ranged rogue is viable, just get your fighter buddy to wade into combat and fire arrows/bolts at the enemy while yelling “sneak attack!”
When I played my goblin pirate rogue back in the early days of Pathfinder, I wound up inventing a “ranged flanking” feat just so that the build would work. If you aren’t sneak attacking with pistols, then what’s the point of playing, you know?
With facing rule, hitting the side or back is always flanking.
Yeah, I do remember that 5E Rogue is stupid easy to get Sneak Attack compared to other versions of the game. Advantage is pretty simple to get depending on your GM. Though, my funniest story of Greedy PC rhetoric is actually from World of Darkness.
I was running a game for a mix of player experience levels in college and a likewise strange mix of supernatural types. One of my players was a vampire who had taken Craft at a high rating, specialized in forging, and wanted to begin the game with a katana he had forged himself. I said sure, since it was well within the rules except for the part about Vampires freaking out in the presence of fire, but he had made it while he was still breathing, so it was good. So we get in game, and he shows up the first time and goes into this big description of his katana and how it has silver kanji all down the blade. Again, I’m like “Cool, he’s getting into his character and enjoying things.” Sessions pass, and eventually he ends up going to the Werewolf player’s house in the woods despite the player telling him not to. (The werewolf had an NPC pack, after all. )
So vampy gets there, finds that the werewolf isn’t home, and decides that since he is gangrel, he’s going to wander the woods behind the house. I decide to be nice, made a random encounter table, and he ended up getting a fox spirit that had been vexing the werewolf pack near him who decided to prank him. So he finds himself lost in the forest thanks to the fox spirit’s illusions, and I keep going “Do you try to find your way back to the house? You can see the lights in the distance…” But vampy is determined to figure out what is going on, and keeps poking around. Finally, the dice declare that one of the werewolves is present, and I decide that he originally found him in wolf form. After a brief interaction as animals, the wolf shapeshifts to human form and basically demands the vamp leave on pain of death. The vamp, deciding that the wolf has been screwing with him this whole time, attacks with his katana.
Me: “So, you hit, you deal 3 Lethal with your katana.”
Player: “Shouldn’t it be aggravated? I have silver in the kanji of my blade.”
Me: Long pregnant pause “Do you want it to be aggravated?”
Player: “Well, yeah. I feel it should be aggravated since there is silver there.”
Me: tosses two dice on the table “Well, that roll failed.”
Werewolf player: Wide eyed and suddenly remembering what happens when a werewolf gets hit by silver “Death rage!”
What would have been a sound beating and tossing out (he was a friend of a pack member, but he wasn’t supposed to be there) turned into a no holds barred rage fest that resulted in a Final Death. Player learned a valuable lesson about werewolves, world of darkness, and situations where the GM asks “Are you sure?”
Werewolves: the catapults of World of Darkness.
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/areyousure
Everyone goes through the Uniform Phase. Some folks find themselves rewarded for it as above. We all like those people.
Rhetoric is for noobs. Offering to buy food and drinks for the table is a surefire method of charming the DM. Especially if theyre also the host.
According to Aristotle, rhetoric is “the ability, in each particular case, to see the available means of persuasion.” In other words, Cheezos are rhetoric.
Diogenese would get a kick out of this line of reasoning.
I don’t see what the MC from “Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy” has to do with anything. 😛
All I can say is today’s comic reminds me of “If Spells and Abilities were Written the Way Players Use Them”.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/bdgnrk/oc_if_spells_and_abilities_were_written_how_my/
It is as if the good people of D&D are subject to a common experience.
As far as that alt text goes, let me just say I’m more surprised she managed to do 3 damage without Sneak Attack. That thing looks like it’s got damage resistance galore, and rogues aren’t exactly known for their high damage.
Yeah, but where’s her maxed dex, dagger enchants, and similar? I think she mis-built something somewhere.
Nah, she’s probably just using Core Rogue as opposed to Unchained Rogue. That means she can’t add her dex to damage, her dagger is enchanted with Deadly Precision, and she has no strength mod. After the Golem’s DR, sounds about right.
Unless she’s a 5E rogue, in which case she’s hosed anyway because the CR system in 5E is way different, and a CR equal to your level will stunt on your character and crypt walk on the ashes.
Even with UC Rogue, Damage Reduction can really pack a wallop on your damage (most PF Rogues tend to get around this via the tons of dice of Sneak Attack and quite often the flurry of blows of TWF.) And don’t even get me started on Hardness and how it even impacts elemental damages. Hardness is straight up worse than DR/Adamantine to deal with, and unfortunately often comes in ridiculously high values. And also quite common on golems…
There are a couple of players in my group who aim to take full advantage of the DM’s interpretation of ‘the rule of cool’ Our DM can sometimes let the Difficulty be pretty possible if what the player is trying is cool enough even if it maybe shouldn’t be possible or likely. However, this is usually applied to single scenarios. A couple of our players like to try and… fudge the rules in their character sheet the same way. Trying to learn certain spells via ‘practical experience’ without paying the gold or putting in the time, arguing that it would make sense for their character to know this language or that. Usually, the DM is pretty good about just enforcing rules as written, but it does get kind of tiring. Of course, I’m the rules lawyer of the group so…
Doing the gods’ work out there, rules lawyer: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/the-high-ground
ghosting a Gripli Barbarian with the gliding ability, a few sessions ago we bargained for half damage to the target on a fall of 90HP worth of average damage.
Love me some gliding frogs. They are neat.
it was only a side encounter, DM doesn’t much care if those are two rounds longer or shorter, as long as it’s fun.
Greedy PC rhetoric? Teammates demanding magic items? Oh boy, do I have a tale…
The party (well, mostly two specific members of it) spent two hours of real time trying to demand magic items from the most powerful dragon in the world. He’d recruited us to do a quest, and they apparently devices that this meant we were entitled to everything in his hoard to equip ourselves with.
I remember our GM looking more and more frustrated at his failures to get a word in over their shouts of requisition. I recall quietly passing him a note that said my character was inching sideways, as far out of breath-weapon radius as I could, and trying to look apologetic and as though I didn’t want to be associated with those two.
The situation ended not in-character, but with an out of character screaming match, and the group falling apart. It wasn’t a very good group to begin with, though, so it wasn’t a huge loss.
You remember the tale of Drangor? I’ve told it before, but trust me when I say that I too have felt this pain. Ahem:
Gather ’round and listen well, and I will regale you with a story from the days of myth and legend, when beer flowed like wine in the halls of Dorm, and the mighty bellows of THAT GUY were heard throughout the quad. His thighs were as miracle whip, his belly like the gods’ own cream cheese, his hair like the bowl cut of the transcendent page boy. He was such a man who would boast of his deeds to the cute RA, bragging of the “many hours per day” he would practice with his ninja weapons. Such a man who would shout from open windows at the dirty haxxors online, cowing them with the might of his immoderate yop.
He lived on my floor. He saw us playing in the common room. We were obliged to let him join.
Said he, “I always play a ranger. He always has a wolf companion. His name is always Drangor.” And we lesser mortals cast about for signs of irony, but found only the light of certitude burning in his small pink eyes.
And with a voice made timorous by THAT GUY’s presence, our DM did say, “The sewer stretches before you, foul water knee deep receding into the gloom. As you take the first few steps forward, you feel something at your ankles. Make a Reflex save.”
And Drangor did fail his Reflex save, and lo did he face plant into filth. For there were many trip wires within the sewers, and the trip wires did enrage THAT GUY to such excess that he ran shouting throughout the waterways, falling and tripping all the while, his faithful wolf falling and tripping at his side. The thieves’ guild (for such slimy places are ever their haunts) soon heard our blunderings. And we did give battle, and for a time it was good. But soon the party came through the murk and blood to our place of meeting, there to find an holy agent of the gods beneath the palace of the King. For that evening was a gathering of nobles, and a royal ball was our destination.
“Quick,” said he, “Change into this fine raiment which I’ve brought for you. For I suspect a fiend of darkest Hell has come amongst the guests, and even now dances with our fair Princess.”
We did as the priest bid us, and soon stood in darkness decked out in finery.
“Next,” said the holy man, “You must give up such weapons as you cannot conceal, for the guards are suspicious, and will not let sharp steel near to His Majesty.”
And as we lesser folk unburdened ourselves of bow and blade, a look of fury came to Drangor’s countenance. For he would not part with the legendary sword Special Snowflake. A great battle then shook the dorms as THAT GUY gave vent to his frustrations, cries of IT’S WHAT MY CHARACTER WOULD DO and DRANGOR WILL NOT GO UNARMED buffeting our cowering DM.
And the game did end without a ball, without a fiend, and without a princess saved. For THAT GUY held fast to Drangor’s beliefs, and thus lay waste to the campaign forever.
-Book of Drangor, chapters 5 and 6
This story reminds me of a page from ‘DM of the Rings’, entitled ‘Disorder of the Stick’: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922
Truly, DM of the Rings is the “Simpsons did it” of my comic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpsons_Already_Did_It
So after Fighter #41 and Wizard #(I don’t know, but we should probably assign a number and start tracking from here) died, Thief Rogue decided to solo the dungeon rather than going back and rezzing/recruiting? Poor planning.
I find that Rogues do very little advantage-begging, because they usually either have an engaged ally granting Sneak Attack, or they’re ranged and do the ol’ hide then shoot trick.
So does the above comic mean Thief Rogue has only 14 Dex? Dagger is 1d4+mod, so on a damage roll of 1 it’d be 1+mod (In this case 3)
Perhaps Thief’s bad luck isn’t just luck.
Considering she used Evasion last comic, she’s at least level 7. She’s had at least one ASI, and possibly more. What was more important than increasing her Dex?
Piercing resistance on the golem and a damage roll of 1 (on-brand for Rogue) would explain it perfectly. (5+1)/2=3
Winner winner, chicken dinner. You gain inspiration.
Except this particular comic is 5E since Advantage. 5E Golems don’t have piercing resistance, they just have immunity to “bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons that aren’t adamantine” so it’s all or nothing.
It might be a homebrew construct that only has resistance to non-magical weapon damage — not everything has to come straight from the Monster Manual.
Or maybe the golem’s a barbarian.
So you know, the reason she is only dealing 3 dmg is because that golem clearly has DR. Oh and as a golem I believe it is immune to sneak attack anyways. And because you’re using a bladed weapon it actually suffers disadvantage. Obviously you want a BASHING weapon versus a metal machine.
Sorry is that guy not allowed to apply his own rhetoric? 😉
Not since Handbook of Heroes #12: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/the-handbook-of-heroes-12
Since this particular comic is 5E based (What with Advantage) that doesn’t apply. Golems are immune to non-magical damage from weapons not made of adamantine, rather than having a reduction. Nothing is immune to Sneak Attack.
on the topic of „greedy rethoric“ I don’t really want to bring up Chevalier again…
so let’s use his friend Sorcerer played by MBA:
„Hey DM, there is this loophole in the kingdom rules where we can sell magic items in a circle for profit, so we now have unlimited recources“
resources – of cause, not whatever the other stuff is.
I hope that malarkey was summarily quashed.
with something on the lines of „that is a case for errata but not my gaming table“
Ooh, ooh, Greedy Player Rhetoric!?
Last session I ran after they got xp (I hand it out at the end, it’s easier to total first and means they won’t level in the middle of a session) they complained because they didn’t get enough to level, and decided to bug me about it. So in response I gave them the xp they needed to level – 1. They were going to level next session anyway, but now they get cockteased for being greedy about it.
Not the hero we need, but the hero we deserve!
don’t forget to dock then 5% of the XP from the next session for interest, it was only a loan yaknow?
Once we hold a three hours argument about if wizards get armor penalties for sleeveless armors. Other time we were a whole weekend discussing dwarf’s theology and sexuality.
While D&D 5E is full of things to fight for, we have not actually played a D&D game. We got the books but we use kinda more like some sort of generic universal role playing system. For example one or twice u have mentioned a Doomlord campaign we played. Well for that game we used the 5E rules with some conversions, specifically for the Emerald Horde. We usually not argue that much for rules and advantages, we prefer to keep the play going than getting +1d4 after ten minutes of doing nothing 🙁
My favorite version of this is arguing about whether awakened snakes can cast without hands.
Actually our consensus on the matter is that they can use their tale as a finger and therefore able to realize the somatic component of spells 🙂
“I thought we were playing with the flanking rules?”
Daily reminder that 5E Sneak Attack doesn’t need advantage, and works just fine with with any other creature hostile to your target within 5ft of them 😛
1-off reminder that players like having advantage as well as sneak attack
My party has always demanded more cash, I provided some even though they usually ran from threats. I’ve now lured them to their potential doom with a quest that pays 90k a head and their only level 5. The person providing the quest is lying about how much he can give them but they think they deserve that much for their deeds.
lol. The expectations economy is about to become very bearish.
“What are you talking about? These modern tanks are the epitome of military technology! There’s no way that giant robot could so easily penetrate their armour!”
With similar variations for ‘that dragon’, ‘that wizard’, and ‘that combat cyborg.’
While also trying to get me to let his character have an anime motorcycle that drives on walls and has grappling hooks.
And trying to abuse the Rifts MDC armour rules.
Go home folks. I think we have a winner. ಠ_ಠ
We ended up having to use experience instead of milestone leveling because one player obsessed over the experience value of each session. Then people started complaining about not leveling fast enough.
I gather that you have strong opinions to post on this one: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/a-few-points-short
😛
Well, I have one strong opinion on that one: Poor, bandaged kitty is super adorable! 😀
Yeah she is.
I never run into this problem with Katalmach, usually because the reason I have advantage is because I’m attacking recklessly. Barbarian/Rogues ftw.
But that sensitive barbarian skin hates the traditional roguish leather armor. How do you function?
Obviously by never wearing wimpy leather armor! The only leather I got is my tough meaty hide! And sometimes a shield, depending on the situation. Or as I call it my smashing board.
But then how do you fit in with all the cool, black-clad rogues back at the guild hall?
If you have no answer, may I suggest body paint. Call it black Woad if you get flak from the Gm for Theme. ^.^
Ima be honest: It was obviously a dumb joke on my part, but I’m kind of in love with the idea of a barbarian that doesn’t like “all these civilized clothes.” They just paint on their clothing every morning like it’s an episode of Skin Wars.
I have mastered the art of standing so very still that I’ve become invisible.
As if I didn’t want to RP Drax already, lol.
Arright arright arright, I got one. And it was me, but I had lots of good reasons for trying such madness, and it’s right up there with my favorite RPG stories and should TOTALLY be an entry on Mr. Walsh’s List.
First, a fair word of warning: We were playing Rifts.
Blah blah, stuff happened, and I challenged the owner of Atlantis, one of Palladium’s many HP Lovecraft inspired “alien intelligences” as they call them, to one on one combat in the Atlantean Arena. He agreed to it after I said his crowd of monsters would love watching their god tear a human apart limb from limb.
“HOWEVER, just to make it interesting, you need to let me at least take the first attack.”
The giant space monster mulls it over, tells me I’ve got a deal. As I am being taken out to my doom, I select a track on my iPod and ask the attending guard if he could take it to the announcers. We gotta’ do this right, after all, Splynn’s gonna kill me, but it’ll demoralize everyone more if he kills me after I get my THEME MUSIC, right?
The guard finds my logic inescapable. I step out onto the field, give the gladiator’s ‘We who are about to die SALUTE YOU.’ My ‘theme music’ starts playing.
It is ‘We Will Rock You.’
I lead the stands in the three verses of the song, by the end of which, with some chaotic chance in the form of a 98 and 100 rolled on two of three D% rolls, they’re ACTUALLY cheering for me.
“So, on the last ‘We will, we will rock YOU,’ I place special emphasis on the ‘YOU’ part and channel my 2D6 blast I got for being a follower of Set through the eye of my Ankh, ATTEMPTING to channel the crowd’s energy as an impromptu ritual to blast Splynn.”
The table goes silent. Our GM opens up the rule book, checks what it says about what a Ritual IS… Rolls a couple dice… rolls a couple more dice… asks me to make a strike roll.
N20 because of course it would be.
“A blinding beam of light sixty feet tall and wide erupts from the eye of your ankh. Splynn’s big eye gets REALLY small as everything turns white. When you can see again, Splynn is GONE, as are the stands that were behind him and all the city between where you are and the ocean. For a few moments, there is silence. Then the island begins to sink.”
And that’s the story of how, somewhere in one multiverse, I sunk Atlantis as a Rogue Scholar with a bit of a GENEROUS interpretation of the ritual rules.
Found some video of your fight: https://media1.tenor.com/images/c4daca3aa4493879e1631d2d410c0960/tenor.gif?itemid=11029810
Canon-wise, the character actually never receives credit for that attack because even though he has it on film, no one believes him.
In a way, I’m sad that I didn’t let us become Atlantean slaves and see where that whole plotline went. But then, that’s how RP is-you kill off the future you didn’t choose at the table.
Playing Rogues and Bards, and intending to play them well, is the fastest way to learn the entire handbook and DMG. Seeking out means of gaining advantages, and learning how allies fight so as to best apply buffs and inspiration wound up pushing me to read cover to cover.
I’ve always tried to avoid this situation though. If I can get advantage, I either know up front, or I check up front for means of gettingit up front. I’ve occasionally joked about it after the fact to add onto the “this has become a desperate battle” effect, but never with the intent of actually getting it.