Aid Another
Suppose there’s a portcullis. It’s this huge chunk of gnarly black iron, and it’s just a little too heavy for your barbarian pal Hrolf to lift by his lonesome. Being a good party member you naturally step up to help. The two of you strain, Hrolf gets a nice little bonus to his Lift Portcullis roll, and up she goes. Doesn’t matter what game system you’re in, that kind of help-a-buddy-out rule just makes sense. Sadly, the problems crop up pretty quickly when you move away from the obvious scenarios like portcullis lifting.
Take the Pathfinder system. The rules give you this handy little nugget to chew on: “In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.” That means you’ve got to exercise the old GM discretion. That can be frustrating for some players, especially in those life and death situations where you positively, absolutely have to know how many peasants it would take to break atmo if they all used Aid Another to help Neil Peasant-strong’s vertical leap.
As an experiment, I’d like to try a little something different down in the comments today. Read through the following scenarios. Take a minute to jot down whether you think help would actually be helpful in each case, then post your results down below. My hypothesis is that we’ll see a lot of variation between commentators. Sound fair? Alright then, onward to the experiment!
- Can you help Thief to pick a lock?
- Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult?
- Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament?
- Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it falls on his head?
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Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon?
- Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison?
- Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell?
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Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic?
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1.No
2.Only if you also have knowledge of it
3.Probably not
5.Yes
6.A little bit
7.Yes
8.If he has a clear view of the traps
1. I disagree you can pass tools to thief, hold light, if thief as you to hold pressure you can do that etc.
3. You would probably have to develop signals similar to black jack teams who signal to each other to avoid casino eye.
1. Yes, but you need to stunt it. An extra pair of hands to jiggle the door when he says to can be a great help.
2. Yes. Repeating the things he’s found out already can help jog his memory.
3. Yes, with a stunt. If you can signal Cleric (using Insight/Sense Motive) you can share your own read, or if you talk to his opponent (using Bluff/Diplomacy) you can startle or confuse him into making a tell.
4. Yes, but not using the standard Aid Another rules. Instead, if anyone in the party spots it and calls out, the surprise round goes to the party. Calling out, of course, risks breaking stealth.
5. Partially. Thief can give advice like how to pad clothes, but cannot actually provide a bonus other than equipment or route suggestions.
6. Yes, but not using the Aid Another rules, and only on second and subsequent saves unless the help is provided in advance. The help is provided using the system’s Heal/Medicine rules for treating poison.
7. Yes. He can also help himself with Arcana/Occult.
8. Yes, but his attempt takes a penalty if he can’t see the traps. Even counting time is useful.
And re: Neil Peasant-Strong:
As many can help a Jump as can surround, so long as the jumper’s weight divided evenly between all assistants would not put any of them above their lifting load. More can assist by being adjacent to another assistant, but must be able to lift both the assistant and the assistant’s share of the weight (and may be helped by another, dividing the weight evenly); and all chains must be either as long as the longest or end with someone flying.
I love that you’re answering from an Exalted perspective. And I really love that Exalted says YES! to everything. That’s what the system is best at after all.
1) Yes, if you’re also trained in an appropriate skill. My logic here is not that the thief would need your help physically picking the lock, but that it’s possible you have specific knowledge about that kind of lock. Maybe this is straightforward like you also being trained in lockpicking or maybe your History expertise grants you some insight into the weird locks of Year of the Owlbear 997.
2) Again, sure why not as long as you’re trained in something appropriate. Arcana, History, and Religion can all cover that kind of thing and partial knowledge of subjects is… well that’s pretty relative since it’d be fairly inaccurate for anyone who isn’t omniscient to say they have total knowledge of anything.
3) Sure… though this probably also involves cheating. Then again… help from another party during a card game is cheating my definition so….
4) Unless you’re blind or not in the same location I can’t see a reason you couldn’t. In fact wouldn’t you be more likely to notice it than him? The top of your head is a pretty big blind spot for most people not currently polymorphed into a beholder.
5) Sure. Hand signs of where not to step based on noticing the loudest parts of the floor. I might make the players pantomime this though. Mostly because it’d be funny, not because it’s a reasonable requirement.
6) Pretty sure that one’s pretty far outside the bounds of any aid stuff. It’s skills and attacks, not “can your body handle this”. Of course Cleric can easily make the save a non-issue with the right spell. So it’s only a no in the technically sense.
7) Same as above really.
8) If that was supposed to be a Dex check or attack against AC, no. If it was a skill check, absolutely. Well I mean…. maybe not him in particular. I wouldn’t be surprised if his Wisdom score was somehow negative. Maybe if he was being wielded by Mr. Stabby.
Ima answer from a Pathfinder perspective.
1) Yes. You must be trained in Disable Device though.
2)Yes. This represents brainstorming and throwing ideas around. However, I would put some kind of limit on it. A room full of scholars can’t suss out the secrets of the universe by adding +100 to every Knowledge check.
3) No. In most scenarios I look at Sense Motive as a personal reaction. More opinions won’t help in the heat of the moment. However, if your group was conducting an interrogation with a prisoner, then all left the room to confer, I would probably allow it.
4) No. “Everybody make a Perception check” means that everybody makes their own perception check. If you’re searching a room together, however, I’ll generally allow the group to nominate one “perceiver.” In those cases I’ll look at the Aid Another attempt as big guys holding up heavy things for the perceive to look under, etc. etc.
5) Yes. They could make the crossing together, with Thief using hand gestures to signal when to move and when to hold still, or which rocks not to step on.
6) No. The “treat poison” action under the Heal skill represents this already.
7) Yes. I have trouble wrapping my head around it, but the Aid Another rules in the combat section specifically say, “You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell.” I guess Wizard slaps Cleric across the face and shouts, “Snap out of it, man!” The question that’s always bothered me though: what exactly is Wizard rolling here? The same save? An attack roll for slapping? Bleh.
8) Yes. The mechanics by which you do so are weird though. If you’re helping out with a skill check you roll the same skill to aid. What do you roll to help with a Reflex save? It’s the same issue I have with #7. In this situation, the rules move from “GM discretion” to “vague.” I supposed I’d choose the roll depending on how the player describes it. Maybe a Perception check to represent Fighter watching for a pattern.
In all of these cases, my answers might change depending on how a player describes their action. It’s all relative, and I’m fairly certain there is no “right” answer.
Pathfinder perspective, off the top of my head, with biases preserved.
Can you help Thief to pick a lock?
Yes, but only with your own set of Theif Tools and training in the skill. If the lockpick involves magic, the assistant must also have the ability to disable magical devices.
Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult?
Knowledge roles are done solo, since you can’t reach into someone’s brain and conjure up memories. However, if using research in a library, I’m willing to use the generous rules from a PFS Scenario: Everyone makes the knowledge check, they count as having ranks for the purpose of allowable DCs. The highest roll is treated as the main roll, and all others are retroactively changed to Aid Another.
Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament?
Sense Motive is personal, just like Knowledge. Nope.
Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it fall on his head?
You can “help” by succeeding on the roll on your own and pointing it out. If he’s walking into it while you notice it, I’d run an Initiative roll to see if you’re able to warn him in time.
Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon?
It’s a big fat beefcake in hundreds of pounds of noisy gear without the spare skill ranks to know their own middle name, let alone be trained in Stealth. Unless “Theif” is an exotic code word for for “I prepared Fly and Silence today,” he’s a liability.
Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison?
Sure! By casting a poison removal spell. Maybe with the Heal skill? I forget if that’s a thing.
Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell?
With his own spells to remove or suppress the condition, yes.
Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic?
Screaming ineffectually while looking like a lovable jerk? I don’t see why not!
1. Can you help Thief to pick a lock? – One person could, maybe. Extra hands might be useful.
2. Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult? Yes, you might be able to jog each other’s memories. “I remember it started with a ‘T’. Thanaries?” “Oh yes, Thonaties!”
3. Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament? Not unless you can communicate with Cleric somehow. Still, you might be able to impart some bonus-giving advice beforehand, like training them to recognize tells.
4. Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it fall on his head? No. You can help Fighter spot it before it comes to that, but when the piercer makes its move it will call for a saving throw or an attack roll, not a skill check.
5. Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon? Oh yes. At least in 5e, doing stealth as a party is very difficult unless the group really builds around it. As such, I try to let my rogues and other stealthy types assist in these sorts of checks as much as possible, and fairly sensible explanations have come from them. The most common ways to help Fighter sneak:
* Stuff something in the gaps of his heavy armor to temporarily muffle the noise.
* To provide a path of safe places to step to avoid troublesome floor squeaks; “step only where I step.”
* To move just slightly ahead of the group and signal when a hallway is clear for the rest of the group to move through.
6. Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison? No, saving throws are not something that can be assisted with. Cleric has other ways to assist with that sort of task, though.
7. Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell? See 6.
8. Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic? See 6.
Thanks for chiming in, MSK! I’m interested in watching this list of responses grow over time.
Regarding your #5: keep an eye out for Monday’s comic. It features group stealth.
1. No. Too distracting. Unless your Dex is higher than 14.
2. Only if you have the same knowledge, or one that is similar to the subject at hand.
3. No. Double teaming an opponent at poker is cheating, and if caught, will get the Cleric disqualified.
4. Not really. You could shout warning after you spot it,but that’d just help with his reflex save.
5. Sure! Stick his clangy butt into a bag of holding, and carry it past.
6. Buff or cure poison.
7. Yep!
8. Not really. He’s mostly being a distraction, and he can’t even see what’s going on.
Can you help Thief to pick a lock?
Yes, if it’s a normal mechanical lock. To help with magical locks, you’d have to have the training too. Another pair of hands to jiggle the door at the right moment can help figure out where and when the tumblers on the lock fall.
Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult?
Yes, but only if you have existing knowledge of the cult yourself. You can use that knowledge to try to jog Wizard’s memory.
Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament?
Yes. But that would fall under cheating, and Cleric likely wouldn’t appreciate it.
Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it fall on his head?
Ideally you’d just make a perception roll to spot it yourself and be able to warn him – aiding a perception roll will never be as potentially ‘better’ as making your own separate roll.
Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon?
Yes, by giving him tips and instructions before making the attempt which would add the Aid Another to his stealth attempts for the encounter.
Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison?
Possibly. It would depend, in my view. Does Cleric have knowledge/experience with this poison? Is the poison known? Cleric could conceivably administer something that would help Wizard make a better save than usual.
Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell?
It depends again – something like that would be pretty context sensitive.
Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic?
I’d say yes. But only if he’s actually trying to navigate the traps himself at the same time. :B
Perhaps a less rules-based approach, but hey, here’s my take…
1. Yes, so long as it’s a big enough lock for both of you to work on it.
2. If you can be a decent sounding board or know what you’re talking about, yes.
3. Sure! May well count as cheating, and it definitely would be obvious to onlookers, but sure.
4. If you’re close enough, yes.
5. Yes, so long as she can communicate it to him quietly.
6. Not without spells or a Heal check, no.
7. Yes, but would be helped by some kind of social check.
8. Yep! But if she decides to listen to him, she bites the consequences if he rolls a 1 on advice-giving.
Note: I don’t even know if Saves work with Aid Another, but I’m pretty sure the rules text is deliberately vague.
No.
Well then. Fairly straightforward.
I’m going to answer in character, as Jednessa, my Barbarian Mountain Ogress Wrestler… (extreme strength and durability, minimal intelligence, willpower, perception, social graces, clothing, etc).
Can you help Thief to pick a lock?
Yes. Jednessa smash door, help Thief pick lock pieces up from floor.
Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult?
Yes. Jednessa just say first thing that come to mind. Every first thing. Wizard always remember just to make Jednesssa shut up.
Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament?
Yes. Smack opponent on head. Now Cleric read them accurately as ‘asleep’.
Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it falls on his head?
No. Jednessa have bad eyes. Um. Maybe? Piercer fall down right? If so, yes. Jednessa probably eye level with beast. Jednessa have good cave seeing. Jednessa probably smell tasty hanging treat before it fall on wimpy Fighter.
Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon?
Hmmm. Yes. Thief poison Fighter so Fighter stop make noise, Thief haul quite Fighter past dragon.
Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison?
No. Wizard too pansy make save versus poison. Even with all help. Best Wizard not get poison. Leave easy thing like poison save for Jednessa or almost not wimpy Fighter.
Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell?
Hold Person bad spell. Jednessa not like. Best hit person with spell lots before cast.
Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic?
Of course! Even Fighter smart enough shout stupid thing at high volume.
Jednessa is my kind of Ogress. Seal of approval and +78 XP.
[Note: this is all coming from a guy who has primarily played 5e — may not apply to other editions.]
1) Yes. As somebody above me pointed out, you could hold tools or a light or help apply pressure to key points. I would rule that doing so only works if there’s enough room for two people at the lock, and it works better if you yourself are proficient with lock-picks (flat bonus vs. advantage, maybe). Otherwise, if your character has some backstory reason to know about whatever kind of lock you’re working on, you could maybe give advice, which could help a little?
2) Sure. Make a History or Religion check of your own to see how helpful you are.
3) Yes, if you take the time to work out some pre-arranged signals, keep making your Insight checks, and can manage to keep the officials from noticing how you seem to have a perpetually itchy nose or how Cleric always glances at you before making a winning play. That probably doesn’t count as the “Help” action, though.
4) Yes, but only if you’ve noticed the piercer yourself. If you only notice it after it lets go of the ceiling, you’re down to giving Fighter 1 or 2 extra points to his AC at best, and that’s after a quick initiative check to see if you react in time. Not sure if that really qualifies as the “Help” action, though.
5) Yes, but it would probably work best if you either remove Fighter’s armor (maybe not the best idea when fights with dragons are a possiblity) or find ways to make Sir Clanksalot quieter. (Pass Without Trace is your friiieeeend.~ Too bad Thief doesn’t learn it.)
6) Not with the “Help” action; you’d have to be using magic (spells like Guidance would fit the bill) or some sort of remedy (Medicine check; likely requires suitable medical supplies or a way to obtain such, preferably before the poison kills Wizard).
7) Dispel Magic is a thing. Beyond that, though, you could maybe make an argument for using your Arcana skill to try to disrupt some of the spell’s energy in order to weaken it a little (probably reduce the save DC by a point or two, depending on your roll). Again, neither of these fall under the “Help” action.
8) Since the question is “Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic?”, I’m going to go with No, because he’s Fighter. Unless what he’s trying to do is be loud and annoying, in which case he’s doing a bang-up job.
However, if the question had been “Could somebody who isn’t Fighter accomplish what Fighter is trying to do in the comic?”, I would say Yes, so long as you have enough time to study the timing and layout of the trap mechanisms (which might require an Investigation check).
Looking back at my answers, I realize that I appear to have taken the following advice to heart: “You should try not to say ‘No.’ Instead, try to say ‘Yes, but…'” (I heard it on a DM tips stream — either Critical Role or High Rollers, can’t remember which at the moment.)
I like that you differentiate between “helping” and “the help action.” Sure you can think of novel ways to affect the scene, but you might have to implement novel mechanism to make that work. Them’s good DMing instincts right there. 🙂
Can you help Thief to pick a lock?
Yes. This can be done by pointing the light where she tells you to, or by staying back out of her way.
Can you help Wizard to recall the name of that obscure cult?
I supppose so, going through the names of cults that you happen to know about and seeing if that jogs his memory.
Can you help Cleric read his opponent in a charity poker tournament?
No. That’s cheating.
Can you help Fighter to spot the piercer before it falls on his head?
Yes, by yelling “Watch out, idiot!”
Can Thief help Fighter sneak past a sleeping dragon?
Maybe. Perhaps by pointing to anything that could trip him up or signaling when he needs to stop moving. Or better, by doing it herself instead.
Can Cleric help Wizard make his save vs. poison?
No. He can only give him an antidote or cast a healing spell after the fact.
Can Wizard help Cleric to snap out of a hold person spell?
Yes. By casting a Dispel or something similar after the fact. He can’t help the Cleric not get hit by the spell in the first place unless he has some kind of counterspell.
Can Fighter actually do what he’s doing in the comic?
Depends. What is he trying to do? If he’s just being a backseat driver, then sure.
Solid strategies across the board, but which of them are using the actual Aid Another rules?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills#TOC-Aid-Another
Helping the Wizard remember the name of the cult, I guess.
Yes, by making an easier roll against the same skill to provide a bonus or by making a roll against a complementary skill–probably a knowledge skill–to provide a bonus. You can also attempt it yourself, possibly with a different skill (like Forced Entry).
Yes, by making an easier roll against the same skill to provide a bonus or by making a roll against a complementary skill–if you can come up with one–to provide a bonus. You can also attempt it yourself, possibly with a different skill (like Streetwise or Savoir-Faire (Academia)).
Yes, by making an easier roll against the same skill to provide a bonus or by making a roll against a complementary skill to provide a bonus. You can also attempt it yourself, possibly with a different skill (like Psychology (Applied)). You can also bypass the roll entirely if you can get a look at the target’s hand. In any case, you then have to somehow convey the information without getting caught.
Yes, by doing it yourself or by making a roll with a complementary skill (like Survival (Cave) or Zoology (Whatever the Heck Piercers Are) to provide a bonus.
Yes, by making an additional roll against the same skill to provide a bonus or by making a roll against a complementary skill (like Leatherworking or Armoury (Armor)) to provide a bonus. Thief can also just stick Fighter in an extradimensional space for the duration, but that’s not in what I perceive as the spirit of the question.
Yes, by making a roll against a complementary skill (like Poisons or First Aid) to provide a bonus or, depending on the circumstances, to keep Wizard from getting poisoned in the first place.
Depends on the spell.
Yes, by making a roll against a complementary skill (like Physics (Applied)) to provide a bonus.
Probably not, unless you are better at lockpicking than her.
Yeah, it just makes sense. Unless for some reason you cannot communicate.
Depends on the rules of the tourney, but I’d say you could whisper some details or telepathically communicate them. Might be annoying to him though.
Not sure how fast piercers fall, but maybe?
Maybe. She might know some good tricks or possibly even be able to carry him.
No. He could probably make a different check though.
I doubt it, but I’m too lazy to check how Hold Person works right now.
Not with the way he’s playing it. That’s just called ‘Being a Nuisance.’
I bet that helping someone with timing by calling out pendulum swings could be useful. Since it’s Fighter however….
Not unless you’re very small.
Only if you can find it in your notes.
You don’t even need a roll of you’re standing behind the opponent. The trick is telling the cleric.
Why? Fighter deserves that piercer.
Only if Fighter trusts Thief enough to stay behind.
Yes, with remove poison.
Yes, with dispel magic.
Obviously, but I don’t think he’s helping.
Wait, what happened to the numbers?