I hope Laurel will forgive me for this one, but I’ma tell one of her stories. Is it time for another tale from the table? Does the Unconquered Sun shit daylight?
So no shit there we were in the icy north of Creation. We had some vague plans about joining the Bull of the North for rebellion and heroics, and we were traveling near the demesne of Princess Magnificent with Lips of Coral and Robes of Black Feathers (Yeah. That’s her actual name.)
Any dang way, we were waylaid as per friggin’ usual. Turns out a backstory was living in that demesne in addition to a Deathlord. Our Dawn caste exalt turned out to have a nemesis in the employ of Princess Magnificent, so we had not choice but to park our caravan and head in for a duel. Things went about as well as you could hope, with infiltration and subterfuge and our secretly-a-death-knight character managing to talk our way out of trouble with his fellow forces-of-darkness. Yadda yadda adventure happened.
The point wasn’t in the infiltration or the anticlimactic (but spectacularly bloody) duel. It was back at that caravan we’d parked outside. Because our triumphant Dawn caste solar came back to the wagons to find that her beloved reindeer familiar waiting where we left him. The only problem is that the overwhelming evil of the place had zombified the poor critter.
“You chose to park it there! This is the natural consequence of that decision.”
“But I don’t want an evil reindeer!”
“Sinister groan,” said the reindeer.
Even though this biz is funny in retrospect, I hope you will join me in a bit of moralizing. That’s because the player in question was actually put out by the situation. The undead reindeer was quietly retired from the game. And I learned that, even though familiars, cohorts, and animal companions are technically NPCs, they don’t “belong” to a GM like other NPCs do. Players feel a sense of ownership. They had a hand in creating that character. It’s part of their sheet, just as surely as magic weapons and martial arts. And taking players’ stuff results in familiar consequences.
So what do you say, Handbook-World? Do you feel that sense of ownership for your pets and followers, or are you OK with a GM treating them like any other NPC? Have you ever had your l’il buddies killed unceremoniously off screen? Tell us all your tales of traitorous animal companions and dead background characters down in the comments!
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The closest to this I ever came was when my goblin abjurer’s first self-made homunculus, “Duchess”, got eaten by a dragon while scouting ahead of the party. It gave me a nast pinch – not to mention my goblin, who suffered psychic feedback from the experience. But I did accept this was a normal cobsequence of sending ‘her’ in alone, and my goblin rebuilt her from scratch later on.
I am reminded of my l’il buddy Viigar: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/unfamiliar
Yikes, ouch. >_<
I can see how you would be, but Duchess was actually built for the job of scouting. Also, we cast invisibility on her. And it was the only time she got eaten.
Stupid dragons…
I am… concerned as to what’s happening in today’s page.
Has Snowflake been arrested by Vengeance? Is Paladin handing her off to Vengeance? Does Paladin’s new creed mean he’s obliged to try and redeem the evil nag?
I think Herald, who can now fly, is handing over the reins to Vengeance. This feels less of redemption than change in owner. Also with his now more flexible moral code he might just try to pass off the problem to a fellow oathbound warrior
Indeed. There is no need of a horse when you got wings.
And as the replacement paladin filling the vacuum left by Herald’s ascension, Vengeance needs a new ride.
Not this one.
Vengeance needs a dire riding dog; it’d be way more his style!
>_>
The fighter’s hellhound companion got killed in a single round– the player didn’t consider that the critter wasn’t advancing in HD right along with the PC and let his little buddy accompany him into an even-odds fight.
Goodboy was more than a battle companion. He was a beloved pet who only occasionally chewed on sentient creatures (and then only with permission). https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/f8ayxt/hell_hound/?rdt=45242
As a DM, I realized from my player’s face that I’d crossed the line from “logical consequences” to “no longer a fun pastime between friends.”
I tugged my beard and remembered/fudged a bit of rules deeplore: the PC used a reaction power from his goddess to throw himself in the way and tank the killing shot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtntSfG6uqE
The wounded hellhound was commanded to withdraw fighting. A subsequent encounter granted a means to advance the loyal hound to maximum HD to avoid such a foe/combat pet mismatch in the future.
Just did this to a player. They got a slain druid’s owl familiar for free. The next scene they go off alone to bury the druid’s corpse. Of course the sadistic dryad that killed the druid wants to hurt the person honoring her body.
“Poof!”
Feathers everywhere.
I told the player that they’d have an opportunity to learn “find familiar” and resummon the l’il guy. Still think it was the wrong call though.
Intelligent horses and horse hybrids are a big part of my world and once a player has acquired one I usually let them play them. They even have their own set of creation tables. The only time I step in to run them is if they end up being character level (eminently possible) on creation.
I also allow a fairly large range of companion animals, but only ones that would make sense for taking out on adventures. Trained war dog, okay. Little white fluffy bunny that never met a vorpal rabbit, nope. If an animal isn’t intelligent enough to get themselves out of melee range when the group has an encounter, I don’t usually allow it.
With the exception of the intelligent horses, I don’t allow pets to engage in combat. I’m an animal lover and I be damned if I’m going to be killing off George’s ferret ingame. I’ve kidnapped a few for mini-story arcs, but never put them in danger. I also won’t let the player’s indulge in pet slaughter either. That said, I won’t interfere in other player’s shenanigans that involve the pets. Like the time the barbarian’s coal black horses ended up with bleached reverse zebra stripes (much note passing while the player was out of the room).
As a player, I’ve never wanted a pet for my characters. I don’t trust other DM’s not to use them to screw with the party.
I’m getting some Mercedes Lackey vibes off those horses. Do they come in pastels? 😛
Actually they come in normal horse colors with a few odd ones thrown in. Most of the breeding stock came out of broken bags of tricks that one of my early DM’s had. Plus, Lucifer’s personal nightmare is also part of the genetics, throw in some intelligent pegasus and unicorns and you can come up with a LOT of different variations.
I’m currently having this discussion with the DM, mostly in regards of companion and followers of the leadership feat. We are currently in compromise that he creates candidates and as story progresses I can influence on who they are, bit once in my retinue I take the ownership. Also we both agreed to keep them as having their own “minds” so it wouldn’t just be me playing two or more hivemind characters acting in perfect consert with one another… This is due to my loud mouth trying to take advantage of the shield wall feat to have a phalanx formation in the dungeons. He is how ever willing to let me abuse the leadership with how companions can also take it as we agreed that one of my characters end goals is to found a militray order.
Thankfully he’s kinda forgoten paladins can summon intelligent steeds.
Don’t wanna yuck anybody’s yums. Optimizing and trying weird strats can be fun. But I get hesitant whenever I find myself negotiating with a GM. That tends to be a sign that I’ve stepped on toes, and that my shenanigans are creating a headache rather than adding fun.
YMMV of course. If a GM allows leadership stacking then on his head be it.
Once upon a time, I played a wizard with a black cat for a familiar. Unoriginal, I know, but cut me some slack – I was eight. The GM, who was in his early-teen edgy phase, decided that the BBEG would show his evil by kidnapping my cat and leaving his body to be found – no saving throws to wake up and notice or anything. I asked if I could resurrect my poor kitty with some of my wealth and a trip to a nearby temple, and was told no. My response was a temper tantrum that prompted parental intervention (remember, I was eight), which lead to a rather sulky ruling that since cats had nine lives, “Shadowpaw” would revive all on his own. The game did drift apart after that, though – I think the GM resented me for that one. Which is fair, because I resented him right back.
BG3. I mistook a certain wandering pet mourning his master’s death for a wolf scavenging bodies. My friends have decided my toon is too evil to live and deserves the death penalty.
It always comes down to puppy kicking! https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/puppy-kicking
our group has 2 pets, feral frenchwomen notwithstanding, a dog and a squirrel/hellspawn. The dog was acquired as a piece of equipment (for tracking, finding clues, and combat assists) and subsequently buffed with a talent. The squirrel was acquired via jumpscare and subsequent animal handling check, then made into a mechanical resource via the same talent.
Obviously, if the dog dies, we riot.
We’re not worried about monsters killing the squirrel, we’re worried about the squirrel killing the monsters.
A least it’s not a squirrel/chaos spawn.
Yeah I totally feel like they’re part of the character if I made them and they have stats and mechanical stuff. The storyteller can still do stuff with them potentially, sure, but they should definitely take care, and moreover, it should be *fair*
As the story above stated, they got attacked and had no choice but to leave them there, so yeah, I’d be super put out to get back from a duel forced by the ST and then find out as an added ‘gotcha’ they just randomly turned a familiar undead. Like.. why? Seems mean from an outside view
Maybe the ST had some kind of story intended for it, but yeah, easy to get just annoyed as a player and not want any part of it. They didn’t *choose* to, it got done to them. Carrot is always better than the stick
Very easy to talk with hindsight mind, I’ve made similar mistakes plenty myself when running games, and feel bad about it after
We knew we were parking in a Shadowland (overlapping Underworld and Creation). But being dumb players unfamiliar with the setting, it didn’t serve as much of a warning.
Maybe three clue rule applies to “don’t do dumb shit” as well as mysteries?
I had a Ranger/Druid character whose probable next-to-last act in an encounter was to make an animal empathy roll against a feral dragon. Rolled a 20 and we spent the rest of the evening debating whether or not a dragon counted as an animal and if the feat counted as a mind affecting spell 🙂
No and no.
I would allow it in rule of cool though. 🙂
Remember this was 25 years ago, rules have changed since then, substantially.
There wasn’t a cut and dried rule for that in AD&D that you couldn’t come up with a good argument against and that group liked debating more than rolling dice, especially if the debate didn’t turn violent, and it was a subject that needed exploring more than the wilderness we were in did 🙂
On GM behavior, familiars and steeds are PC class features. Mess with them as carefully as you would Smite, Turn Undead or Sneak Attack. “Your sneak attack may now attack allies or refuses to work on goblins”. Now “your hexblade reports back all you do the the Raven Queen” is just par for the course.
IMO, familiars and steeds that are literally spell-bound to each other, have to be loyal to the PC or the bond breaks. By the same token, a mistreated spirit ally can refuse to be summoned and a new, notably quirkier ally should appear, one with lower standards and a work ethic commensurate to the PC’s behavior.
Pets and allies acquired outside of class features are fair game though.
On the comic itself, Steed, AFAIK, was never unfaithful. I mean, Herald didn’t even realize she was his steed there for a while. She had her own additional motivations that Herald never noticed or assisted.
That’s a major fail in our games. You support allies with motivations and should be willing to ignoring major plot points to further the allies’ goals. There is a delicious schadenfreude as the GM experiences cognitive dissonance between the giddiness at players engaging with the world and their base desire get to the “cool” part of a campaign.
I have two relevant stories (well, one and a half), both in Scion, funnily enough. For the first one, I was the Storyteller. One of the characters had… like 153 family members, that he was using as his own private army. Thing is… he hadn’t actually paid for any of them as a Birthright, a distinction I made clear when 3 of them were killed offscreen by their first capital “M” Monster. Guides, Beasts, Followers, even people who are Fatebound to you, all have a certain amount of narrative protection, ensuring that for the most part they won’t go down, or at the very least won’t go down without a whole lot of drama. Unaltered mortal you’re using to stake out a suspicious location? Very likely to be killed to establish the threat level, because Fate only cares about a good story.
And now, playing Scion again for the first time in years, I’ve set myself up for a similar situation. See, one of the characters I’ve statted up is Alexandra Kouros, Scion of Artemis. She’s a monster hunter that has fallen deeply in love with her anxiety-riddled companion Mara Secare… who she hasn’t realized yet is actually some manner of succubus. And while I’ve spent the points to have her as a Guide, giving her narrative protection against being unceremoniously killed off, the sourcebook is quite explicit that she may have an ulterior goal that I’m not privy to. So I’ve left myself very open to the possibility of having the rug yanked out from under my character.
That second one is for a play-by-post game, so I’ve actually got a writeup to share for the curious:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?664115-Scion-First-Edition-game-now-recruiting&p=25960480&viewfull=1#post25960480
I also had a scene set up where the character’s divine father, Tyr, appeared to him in a dream to show him Valhalla, where his recently deceased descendants were having a great time partying, training, and fighting. Combined with a speech on how, as commander, it’s your responsibility to take care of your men, and that watching them die anyway is the absolute worst part of any commander’s job. Would have given some closure to the player, but alas, we all parted ways for college before that came to pass.
I once played an Artificer who mentally watched their homonculus, Little Pedro, get horrifically torn apart and tortured by a mysterious feathered figure when it was scouting the town alone. Turns out that feathered figure was the BBEG. Let’s just say I had a lot of motivation to hunt down the BBEG.
I think that if you want to be able to “play rough” with companion NPC’s (animal or otherwise) then it’s very important to manage those expectations early.
Real early, as in during character creation so the players can choose not to take them if they prefer early. This is of-course tougher if the companion NPC is adopted mid-game, but having a conversation then is probably the best substitute.
Even with buy-in I think a slight degree of extra protection is a good idea.
Hurting most NPC’s “off-screen” or by fiat (rather than going through the games normal mechanic systems) are perfectly fine, but much like the PC’s themselves you should avoid doing it to their companion NPC’s.
If the PC’s all go to sleep in a dangerous deadly area, you wouldn’t respond by saying that they got killed during their sleep, with no save or anything.
Instead you might tell them that it’s very dangerous (explicitly or by say asking who’s on guard), and give them some checks to notice the danger if they choose to do it knowingly.
Likewise hitting a player with overwhelming instantly lethal force to establish that an NPC villain is dangerous/evil is typically a bad idea.
I think giving companion NPC’s similar protection helps a lot, even through it requires more work since their life isn’t always “on-screen” in the same way as PCs are.
To take the undead reindeer example since it’s conveniently here already: we might adjust by first asking the players if they take any precautions when they leave it (even through that costs us the chance to have the consequences be a surprise), or we might just mention that there’s a chance that bad stuff will happen to the deer while they are gone.
Then since we said “might” we could also find a way to involve some die rolls (dice have a bit of legitimacy for bad stuff happening to you, that we can borrow). Maybe we ask the players to roll us some check for the deer – or maybe we just ask them to roll a die with some high (fine), low (middle consequence, the deer is hurt/danger of turning and need treatment) and leave the “it is now an undead deer” for the very lowest and worst of rolls.
—
For personal experiences: during a Dark Ages: Vampire game I did once feel the need to remind my ST that I had paid multiple background dots my vampire knights Ghouled destrier Barnabas, that his threatening elder villain was lifting right now as he was making his escape in a way that *strongly* implied that in a moment he was going to tear it in two to demonstrate his dangerous elder potence. I mentioned that I’d be OK with Barnabas, dying but that I’d want to see the NPC making attack/grapple and damage rolls just like if he had been hoisting me instead.
He course corrected into having him throw the horse at us to slow us down instead.
I can’t say I didn’t see cohorts and familiars as possible targets, but I honestly lack the ability to harm even fake animals (unless they are trying to kill me). Not to say a few didn’t get caught in the crosshairs. We had this one player who was infamous for spending their starter gold on animals, but didn’t play a ranger, so they were hilariously outclassed by 5th level.
Since then, I have moved to other systems since then, often with rules about the sanctity of xp, and so I have adopted a bit more of an attitude on the sides of the players. Unless I am running a “Hard Mode” game, but even then the sancity of xp still exists.
Also, 3e has Princess Magnificent embracing her other name of the Black Heron, with Princess Magnificent being a cover used in Stygia as she tries to rebuild her forces after the loss in Great Forks. She is also no longer stuck under the Lion, instead he is one of her main allies as she rebuilds herself
I remember running a Pokémon game that had a running bit of the various critters being capricious in some way.
Like a Totodile that had a major teething problem.
BITE ALL THE THINGS!
It bit a Gym Leader once. (Because I miscalculated how hard the fight was going to be because it turns out that the system’s mechanics aren’t that great…)
“But I don’t want [whatever]”
“What part of ‘natural consequences of your own actions’ was unclear? Is whining like a child how you typically escape consequences? Because it’s not going to work here.”
…So no the stuff on the player’s sheet isn’t off limits. You don’t screw with it just for funsies, of course, but natural consequences are what they are, and nobody gets a free pass just because they can cry the loudest about how unfair it is that bad things might happen when they do something dumb.
“I park my horse outside the dungeon.”
“When you come back your horse is dead.”
It may be a “natural consequence,” but it’s also a great big feels-bad.
My response to abandoning the horse outside would vary depending on whether I’m dealing with a group of newbies who don’t know any better, or veterans who should know.
Newbies might face a consequence like the horse being gone, rather than dead. They get a little side plot about rescuing it from kobolds who brought it home to be food, or something. They can learn the lesson “Leaving your horse unattended outside the dungeon is a bad idea” without needing the feel-bad. I do it that way because the horse simply being dead is boring, and cruel to inflict on someone who doesn’t know any better.
With veterans, the horse might die. It’s a bit boring, so I wouldn’t typically go the route of simple boring death unless they were acting like jerks, but if they’re making silly mistakes like that, then they might benefit from the reminder not to be so careless. It might save them from doing something even dumber in a more critical situation.
Or… if they’re newbs, you could just say “You know, if you leave your camp and horses unguarded, in this rough neigh-borhood, you will likely find them stolen, or eaten, or worse.”
And then let the newbies think about how to secure their vehicles against the criminals in the area.
Likewise for ‘experienced’ Players. Just because they’ve been playing for forty years doesn’t mean they’ve ever had to worry about the camp before, they might be seasoned “nothing dangerous exists outside the dungeon” type of gamers.
Even worse is when you come out of the dungeon and find your packhorse up on blocks with his mithril horseshoes stolen…
For us, any companion or familiar is treated like a PC. That doesn’t mean free of consequences, but it does mean not doing to them anything cheap, unavoidable and unexpected. If the player is making some mistake, give them ample warning, and let them consider their decision.
Since it’s the “default” expectations, pretty much every player builds their companions as a trusted friend. If one gets killed early it might be a harsh blow to them, and if one gets killed late that’s just cheaply poking into the party’s resurrection fund. No fun to be had, either way.
It also goes with the rule “any pet that doesn’t take part in combat, doesn’t take damage”. Goes for both attacks of opportunity and AoEs.
I can’t wait for Antipaladin’s group (Bounty Hunters? Or is he solo now?) to discover why they keep waking up with Con drain every morning.
And Vengeance to discover his mount is involved in a deranged love triangle.
We’ll have to see how it goes. >:)
If the PCs are deliberately putting the critters into dangerous situations, that’s on them. If they have a pet with them and combat breaks out, I typically have the critters run for safety round 1. If I have reason for the enemy to find their camp/base while the party is away, the critters will return from hiding shortly after the party does.
I do appreciate “critters” as a shorthand for all the various types. 🙂
Seems like the kind of things that should be addressed in session 0.
Something you can do, though, is give the players a way out to restore their familiars/pets/followers to their normal state. A way to dezombify the reindeer, or whatever. Then it’s no longer a jerk move, just a plot hook.
I had a squirrel companion once. His name was Nutless. I loved that silly thing. Not a combat oriented pet, I made a little home for him in my backpack, and had a VERY specific set of simple rules that he would follow in case a combat broke out.
– he runs away, far enough to be out of danger, but close enough to run back when the fighting is done.
Despite that fairly simple idea intended to keep him safe, the DM hit my character with a lightning trap (Call Lighting effectively) and I failed the save.
DM: “Make a save for Nutless.”
Now I did fail that save roll, but even if I had succeeded, the damage at half STILL KILLS MY SQUIRREL!
Did the DM know this trap was going to kill him? Did he intentionally set the trap in place to kill my squirrel? Does it matter? NO! Because my squirrel was still DEAD as a result of the situation!
But I ain’t mad…
(no, I am still very mad )
“Natural consequences” is typically an excuse, particularly for inexperienced game runners, for jerking around their players. These are roleplaying games: don’t be surprised when the actor of the characters that they themselves created gets upset when, almost like a bully, someone they trusted betrays them and shoves over the sandcastle that they built with what is likely hours of painstaking effort poured into it.
It’s a betrayal of trust and it absolutely feels like a personal attack, because any good creator has put a bit of themselves into their creations. While we might have many characters in our minds, we also probably fond of them, in the way most of us have two eyes, and while we can make do with only one, we’re very fond of them both. It’s cautionary tales like these that remind that tabletop/roleplaying games are collaborative, co-operative endeavours, and as an adjudicator of the game, the game runner has more power than everyone else at the table.
And I’m sure you know how that saying goes.
So much as harm a hair on my pet’s head and your lucky dungeonmaster dice are getting eaten.
“Do you feel that sense of ownership for your pets and followers, or are you OK with a GM treating them like any other NPC?”
Yes. As long as it’s not some “feature” of the PC, like if it’s just an animal they keep around or a NPC they like, it’s free game. But if it’s a “class feature” it gets some level of protection.
Again I run GURPS, so if a Player cares about an NPC they have recourse to add a little “insurance” by way of buying them as an Ally. Otherwise, NPCs that aren’t purchased as a part of the PC are free game to fold, spindle, mutilate, and shred.
Now, even bought Allies can die, disappear, or turn traitor, if that’s the sort of campaign I’m running. But the points will remain to be used for future Allies or for other abilities, etc. And the campaign type will be made clear from Session Zero, there are no surprises for my Players, despite the number of shocked pikachu faces I often see when something happens that they somehow didn’t see coming even with all the foreshadowing.
I appreciate that GURPS even has a “Pet” perk, so that you can cheaply take a critter off the free target list. A one point, “Don’t kill Mittens, I’ll cry” sticker.
Heck, GURPS even now has a “Don’t break/steal my stuff!” Perk called Signature Gear. So as long as your GM allows it, you can definitely buy “meta” insurance for your PC’s most important things, pets, or buddies.
Noooo, Vengeance! You’re letting the wrong one in!
And Herald, you should know Vengeance is on the side of righteous… not on the side of evil anymore! How could you saddle him with such a bad apple?
I actually had a game where the question of, “What about the horse?” kinda put a wrench in the plot. The funny part is… it wasn’t even our horse. First time I played 5e was Lost Mines of Phandelver and we got the the to the “Call to Action” type moment but… the plot hook was that we were hired to bring this cart of stuff into town, so how could we just ditch a whole cart of stuff to go dungeoneering? The area was fully established as dangerous, so what, was one or more player supposed to sit out on the cart? (never split the party) We ended up just continuing on to the town, with plans to come back, but I could tell the DM was going, “Wait, that’s not supposed to be how this goes,” the whole time and I get it. A lot of the time Adventuring calls for a bit of suspension of logic.
Personally I haven’t really invested in many NPCs or pets during play that weren’t part of the plot. The only real one being Draco, my Pseudodragon cohort that the DM controls… and forgets about 90% of the time. I don’t think the DM has any thoughts of doing anything to him…. even leveling him up like he should tbh. There’s really only so much that can happen that can’t be undone in most of the games I play, so I guess I feel they are somewhat fair game?