Any time the whole chainmail bikini thing comes up in conversation between me and my artist:
Me: It’s probably a good thing that we’ve moved beyond useless sexy armor.
Her: But I like drawing sexy armor!
And that little exchange warms the cockles of my gamer heart. There is a huge array of fantasy art out there, but I think that there’s enough room in the multiverse for Brienne of Tarth and Frank Frazetta (NSFW) to exist side by side. Beyond issues of representation, female exclusion (you can’t play in the boy’s club unless you wear the +1 boob plate!), and creepy magical realms, there’s a question of aesthetics at play. What looks cool to you?
I’ve always thought the guys at Paizo have done a bang-up job here. Their iconic paladin reads a feminine, but also as “armor plated badass.” Moreover, she’s stylized enough that it’s a little beside the point to bring up well actually, that’s not historically accurate type stuff. Some of their other characters? Well if you were packing that kind of Charisma-based magical power, you might want to strut you stuff a little too. But here’s the thing: that’s just my preference. If you’re more into practicality on the one hand or double-sided tape + ribbons on the other, you do you.
We’re all big kids here, and we all have our aesthetic preferences. I think that we can express those preferences without shouting at one another.
Question of the day then: What’s your favorite type of fantasy art? Highly stylized and cartoony? Ultra-realistic? Post links so we can compare notes!
When it comes to the fashion choices of the iconics, the only one that I don’t like is Alahazra. I mean come on lady, you have a medium armor proficiency, use it! It’s not like you’re an Oracle of Lore, with their “Cha to AC/Ref save” revelation, you really have no excuse.
I’m pretty sure her allotment of medium armor is balanced on her head. Any more and she’d be encumbered. 😛
I appreciate your opinion on this quite a lot, doubly more so when you mentionned your girlfriend likes sexy armor. Too many feminist/SJW try to “desexualize” women in the extreme without even taking into account that were all free to do what we want and that some women DO like that sort of stuff.
In theire own little mind a women like that stuff only if she’s brainwashed and is created only by exploitive, sex starved men and i find that shameful and ridiculous.
I think you want to empower every gamer to see themselves in fantasy. That’s what “representation matters” is all about. I’ve seen a lot of black female geeks posting about how cool it’s been to see that paladin I linked up above representing their inner knight in shining armor. But if your version of empowerment is a little sexualized, that’s totally valid too. Like I said, you do you. Everybody gets to choose what they like in art. After all, that’s why it’s art!
Its not a matter of like or dislike, things are objectively sexist, not a matter of opinion. Stuff like boob amour and chainmail bikinis exist solely to sexualise, and when applied only to women, its sexist, thus unacceptable. preference doesn’t play into it all. its an objective criticism thus subjective preference is irrelevant.
You dont get to go “but some of that group like it” when someone brings up prejudice. Thats not an argument
Over four years later and this topic is back in the news with “The Mandalorian.” It seems to be a perennial favorite. (And for me, a welcome escape from talking about the “medieval stasis” comic for five friggin’ seconds.)
A few important points. I think it’s important to recognize that 1) sexism in media is very much worth discussing, and 2) pinning down “objective” sexism is hard to do.
Moving from generalities to specifics might help. So to illustrate the point, check out this article about the aforementioned Mandolorian story:
https://comicyears.com/pop-culture/the-mandalorian-boob-armor-controversy-explained/
For me, this is the most interesting line:
Dismissing feminist perspectives is (obviously) a mistake. But drawing a hard line and declaring that XYZ creative decision is always sexist and always unacceptable is tough for me to accept. Especially since I’m speaking as the co-creator of the “Handbook of Erotic Fantasy” linked at the bottom of this page. 🙂
I am a fan of the highly stylized, Lois Royo types.
One google later and I’m a fan. Really cool stuff!
Well there’s a certain webcomic’s artist’s style of art I certainly enjoy quite a bit.
Though honestly I’m not sure I have a favorite. I’m not really… whatever the art equivalent of “well read” is and my own inability to draw even stick figures that don’t elicit mockery and the possibility of banishment from known realms leaves me to appreciate pretty much any style as long as it looks nice.
Aw shucks… Ya know, we don’t really have it posted anywhere on the comic, but if you’re interested Laurel does take commission work. She’s got her rates up on DA: http://fishcapades.deviantart.com/journal/Commission-Updates-227497588
It’s been an education knowing an illustrator. We’ll often have conversations along the lines of, “Frank Frazetta is one of my personal heroes.” And I’ll be like, “Who?” And she’ll be like, “Really?” And after a bit of googling around I’ll realize that oh yeah, I’ve seen that guy’s work. Beautifully sculpted orc butts everywhere!
I guess that’s what it’s like for me as a non-expert. Play enough RPGs and read enough fantasy novels with their glorious, tawdry covers and you begin to recognize art. The weird bit is realizing that those artists are out there, still plugging away and creating. It just never occurred to me to go look for them.
I love realistically armored women! A bit of boob plate or whatever here and there doesn’t bother me much, though. Sometimes you want to remind folks that there is a woman under that slab of steel and I respect that. However, chainmail bikinis, boob windows, and too-many-sashes are very silly and not something I prefer to engage in.
For that matter, excessive armor spikes are also ridiculous. I think you’ve already covered that one though.
Hmm, well, it’s not really “sashes” per se, now that I think about it clearly.
Here’s a picture: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/6/63/Selena_Agna_DoW.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150802181908
This is Cannoness Agna, if you aren’t familiar. The boob plate is actually a bit of brilliance, because Sisters of Battle would love nothing more to die as holy martyrs. However, look at the rest of her outfit. She’s got a cape, a dangly slash on the front AND back, and a very dangly censer. She’s a primarily melee fighter! I have no idea how she stays upright. I fall over in regular clothes.
Nope. Anything from 40k gets a free pass. The minute you start trying to point out how silly it is you’ll be inundated with quotes from obscure editions of White Dwarf explaining how sisters of battle have nano-fiber steel cables instead of muscle tissue, and that the those aren’t “boob plates” but actually “sacred vessels for psi-charged holy water.” I would rather not have that argument again. 😛
Equality should be restored by adding equally unweildy and cumbersome codpieces to all the male armor.
(And presumably I guess female gnolls will have both)
Thanks to a certain randy Tudor monarch, we’ve even got historical precedent:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/39159582.jpg
I still want to see this over armored tank of a character withstand a Enlarge Creature’d troll’s “Massive tree torn from ground” attack, pop the helmet open to reveal a flowing shock of red hair, and quip “I’ve had better wood from a Halfling bard.” before slamming the helm shut and executing the troll with three crit swings. XD
An interesting variation on Eowyn’s speech. I think she’d approve.
And Theif is just off-panel in the bulkiest set of full plate ever.
She’s got her own lingerie woes to deal with: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/traditional-garment
obviously to each their own.
my own take on this is this:
1. I am not my character. at most I am an actor re enacting what my character would feel and behave like. that is (for me) much more fun, and I can play a much wider variety of characters that way.
2. this is fantasy – where magic is part of the story. so there’s no reason to believe the protection granted by an armor can only be achieved through its mechanical properties. I did away with realism when I accept that people can conjure fireballs from thin air.
3. I’m playing the game to have fun and enjoy it. I’m about to watch the back side of my toon for the next (at least) 20 hours of gameplay. so, do I want it to be a clumsy hunk of metal or a pretty booty in a bikini? the answer (at least for me) is the latter with a few exclamation points.
so in conclusion, for me, realism takes a back seat to aesthetics when it comes to fantasy armor design.
Weirdly, I think that the goofball comedy “Your Highness” does a great job with this. They’ve great straight up bracers of armor in that one.
I am very much into the medium-to-heavily stylized/cartoony look, personally. This comic is a pretty good example of the kind of art style that I tend to like, which is probably not a coincidence. 🙂
I tend to like characters to be larger-than-life heroes, powerful and extraordinary rather than gritty and grounded, which is likely also part of the reason that I tend to prefer art that isn’t so realistic. Goes well with each other, I think.
After an hour of laughing my way through the archives, I did not expect that paladin’s backstory (https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5la39?Meet-the-Iconics-Seelah) to make me so emotional. I never gave you permission to make me cry like this, you vile villainess!
Sexy requires intimacy. The whole point of armor is to prevent intimacy.
Women are sexualized so consistently (and so rarely in ways that are sexy) that I feel a designer should earn that right by sexualizing men too: not Played For Laughs, but genuinely delighting in the male figure. And, I find that guys willingly being sexy makes it a lot more fun for myself as a woman to reciprocate: then it’s about fun rather than about power; an expression of sexuality rather than a corruption of sexuality. Everyone wins!
Absolutely! As an artist I really strive to cover the bases and have sexy men and women as well as men and women who are covered up – it’s not appropriate for every character’s personality, and diversity is always a good thing in my book.
I dunno. There’s something about breaking down that outward shell that smacks of release.