New Edition
In our most recent Patreon poll, we did something that was kind of obvious in retrospect: We asked our Quest Givers for a quest. With Paladin still busting ass to prove himself worthy of becoming Lady Celestial’s divine herald, our golden boy needed yet another impossible challenge. Considerations were considered. Votes were tabulated. And our hapless aasimar was left with the most thankless, upsetting, and impossible task of them all: Convince the Heroes to change editions.
Sometimes I wish Thaumaturge was still around. We’ll need his Edition Warrior spirit to make it through today’s topic in one piece. So hold onto your rulebooks and grease up the ye olde stake. It’s time to talk about dragging your players kicking and screaming into a new system.
There seem to be two camps on this issue, neither of whom like or understand the other. On the one side we’ve got “RPG Sommeliers.” These are the guys that love to pair system with experience. You’re going to play super spies? They’ve got a system. You want science fantasy? Here’s a menu of recommendations. You want to play gunslingers wandering a fantasy world based on pre-statehood Utah? Good news! They’ve got a system. But what they really want is for you to try a new system — any new system — rather than sticking to ol’ reliable. For an RPG Sommelier, game mechanics are a means of expression, capable of delivering unique interaction metaphors that “content” alone cannot. They’re the ones who will tell you that D&D is about resource management rather than fantasy adventure. But even if they aren’t wrong, they aren’t all right either.
That’s because the other side have some points to make as well. These people believe in their “One True System.” They’re the kids who want to hang onto 5e, or GURPS, or Skyrealms of Jorune, or whatever the crap, with the grim determination of a dozen Charltons Heston. Their group has been playing this way for years. They like their system. If they want to try something new or different, they can draw on a dozen supplements to rejigger their genre. And hell, if they really want to they’ll just do a bit of homebrewing. Why mess with what you know and like? After all, the rules are just here to support imagination, and you don’t need any specific set of rules to do that.
No doubt I’ve completely mischaracterized your preferences and you will have STRONG WORDS for me down in the comments. I look forward to hearing them. Especially because the current historical gaming moment seems to focus on, “Will I stick with D&D 5e, jump to Pathfinder 2e, or broaden my horizons and go elsewhere?” So whether you’re an RPG Sommelier, a One True Systemite, or some more esoteric beast, tell us all about your trials and tribulations trying to get your pals to game different!
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Most of my campaigns didn’t run long enough to warrant a system change. :-/
We’d go in with the GM (sometimes me) presenting setting and system and play that to the end.
Currently, I am in a campaign that underwent system change. We started out with Anima Prime, but switched over to PF 2E sometime later. I was a bit sad – I was starting to get the hang of Anima Prime and liked it – but the majority vote swung to PF 2E (with my own vote for PF 1E). But! It was the consensus, and the story hasn’t changed; just the mechanics.
I’m not a huge system purist, though I do have my favourites. If I can play those: YAY!
If not, and the tale is compelling and the system doable: okay. I’ll give it a go.
Of course there are exceptions; at least one system has grown so bland and annoying, and another so toxic, to me that I don’t want to use them anymore. I won’t mention any names…
I don’t know Anima Prime. What’s it like? Why did you guys decide to switch?
For starters it’s free and open access. 😉
Second, it draws some inspiration from anime and the Avatar series, but it’s wonderfully flexible. I heartily encourage checking it out.
The GM and the other player were enthusiastic about trying another, more regulated system, iirc, and we discussed options. I gave a hard veto to D&D 4e, they weren’t open to PF 1e, nobody was all that wild about D&D 5e.
This is an interesting question for me. I think I might be both. I have a system (also world) that I like, and play the hell out, namely King Arthur Pendragon (KAP). For KAP players the fortunate thing is that all editions up till now (1st, 3rd, 4th, 5.0, 5.1 and 5.2) are merely changes in focus on some of the rules, but that the rules mechanics are still the same. Edition 6 is now being play-tested, and there will, again, be some shift in focus, and a little tweaking, but no big changes. This means that the system is just like this old and comfortable coat, that is now beyond repair, but you buy a new one of the same model, and after two days it just fits like it used to.
On the other hand, I like to try, and use, new systems, and settings. I have found that , personally, for me some systems get in the way of the playing style that I want, need and use for that setting. And that not all systems/mechanics support the style I want in such a way that it lets me immerse in that world. I do realize that familiarity with a system gives you more ways to use it, but even then, I sometimes struggle with the “wrong” system for a setting.
So a little of column A, a little of column B.
I wonder if this is weirdly typical? As a gamer, you’ll pick out a core system to serve as the Sun at the center of your RPG universe. From there you set out to explore the planets, adapting to the bizarre atmospheres and foreign gravities of different worlds. But after a few orbits in some distant asteroid belt or obscure moon, you are happy to fall back into the gravity well of that Sun, riding it home to the breathable air of your native campaign setting?
The metaphor describes my own preferences. I’d rather game in Pathfinder 1e, but I’m happy to set out for jaunts into strange new systems before returning again to my favorite place in the universe.
Oof–this feels very relevant.
I tried PF2e late last year, liked it as a player, noticed that AoN was basically the DnD wikidot but much better and official, and noticed PF2e fixed a lot of things I found myself homebrewing or wanting to homebrew 5e to fix. I also didn’t initially think it would be a good idea to change system for the table I’m GMing, especially given how long it’s taken my table just to get through half of Lost Mines of Phandelver. For two of them 5e is also their first system, and the other two hadn’t played tabletop in decades.
Then the OGL drama happened, WotC hit the trust thermocline, and suddenly I found myself picking up first the PF2e Gamemastery Guide (for any system-agnostic advice on GMing), and then the Beginner Box, and then ordering a Core Rulebook and getting the Lost Omens World Guide PDF during the open gaming promo–all while giving repeated updates to the players about the OGL.
I absolutely feel torn–I made long-term plans for my players to do after Lost Mines that now suddenly feel a bit wasted, especially since it seems recommended that everyone start PF2e at Level 1 and I might as well run Golarion content after that instead of trying to retrofit Faerun. But I also kind of just want to switch already, because there’s so much quality of life PF2e seemingly does better and I already have the Beginner Box. But THEN I also want to look into rules-light systems, since those might fit my table’s needs better…my feelings on it are kind of a mess.
As for my own preferences as a player: I cut my teeth on freeform play-by-post RP before learning 5e around 5 years ago. I definitely lean towards 1 or 2 systems at a time, but it isn’t the first time I’ve changed what those systems are. PF2e seems like it’s going to be one of them going forward, but I still have one character bound to 5e I want to play in a full campaign with.
(P.S. Have you thought about making Thaumaturge II, now with a first party class and somewhat more nuanced views on edition wars than their father? https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=22)
I sympathize on the 5e thing. I think my webcomic senpais covered the feeling pretty well:
https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/08/23/traditional-values
It’s funny that you bring up the Pf2e thaumaturge. I picked that class name for Thaumaturge specifically because it didn’t seem to be in use in previous editions. Now that it’s actually in play… I dunno. Maybe Thaumaturge Jr. could be a proper system sommelier, appreciating multiple systems and settings rather than clinging to esoteric preferences like his forebear?
I actually found this comic in the last week or so (after learning about the 2e Thaumaturge), so it was kind of amusing to see Thaumaturge for the first time while archive binge-ing and thinking “wait a minute, was this also an obscure 1e class I don’t know about? (Especially given his design could probably work for a 2e wand implement Thaumaturge.)”
Seeing as Thaumaturge is also the “try everything remotely esoteric and jury-rig solutions based on what you’ve got” class, it also makes sense a Thaumaturge Jr. would maybe take the same approach to game systems. You could even have their implements be a wand (a hand-me-down?) and a sourcebook tome implement. Maybe a lantern implement with a Blades in the Dark clock on the front face for the third, once they hit Level 15?
Lol. Well the concept has made it AT LEAST as far as my “script ideas” doc. Will bat a few things around with the illustrator… Maybe make it a Patreon poll. After all, if the will of the people gave the OG Thaumaturge permadeath, maybe it can animate his successor in turn?
Plus the thaumaturge iconic is nonbinary, if you wanna work that bit it at all. Mio is great.
100% RPG Sommelier. I cut my teeth on DnD like most people (4e in my case), and it was a bad fit for a former theatre kid with its very neat and gamified structure. I ran it for three years, just because I didn’t know that alternatives existed.
By the time I had discovered World of Darkness, Numenera (Cypher System) and FATE, I was thoroughly done with 4e. But rather than having to convince my old secondary school group to change these games, we had all seperated for university and I was in need of a new group.
Luckily the Tabletop gaming club at my Uni had at least a handful of people who were interested in a different kind of RPG, an nWoD chronicle focused on playing beat cops in the most supernaturally riddled parts of Brooklyn.
I’ve got friends who do play 5e almost all the time, but everyone I play with is on some level a RPG Sommelier. My regular group rotate systems between campaigns constantly, and even if I run some 5e with new players as an introduction to RPGs, we can swing wildly in another direction afterwards like Band of Blades.
I was talking to a user named Xylem back in this one…
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/fitting-in
…Trying to to imagine what a “toyetic” but non-crunchy system might look like:
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/10rztmf/the_osr_lonely_fun_and_why_i_believe_many_dd/
It occurs to me that WoD might be a good model for reference. It bills itself as a narrative style system, but it still has lots of interlocking mechanics and esoteric rules interactions to noodle with. Of course, I can’t really speak to NWoD, but I would imagine it keeps the style…?
I’ve haven’t played WoD proper, but I ran Orpheus which I think uses mostly the same rules. And yes, in both systems I feel its flexible enough that you can just boil things down to “Roll Attribute+Skill” when you want to keep things simple, but each of the main splats and even the merits in Mortal nWoD provide their own fun submechanics that help sell the ‘vibe’.
I’d argue that each splat has enough different “toys” that you could get plenty of lonely fun optimising each one, like finding a marital arts style that synergises with your vampiric claws, or collecting various leadership merits to make yourself the best werewolf pack leader possible.
Yeah, I can see the points of both sides, honestly. Both are right in their own way, and both start being wrong once they start overdoing it. If you’re playing D&D 5e for example, jumping system just because you want to have, IDK, a somewhat more complex firearm system than what’s already in place feels a bit silly – everything else still works for you, and like you said there are certainly supplements around. But stubbornly sticking to 5e when you want to play something out there, like superpowered football with high stakes politics or something, seems equally silly – the system is just *not* built for that kind of stuff, and you’re just making things more complicated for everyone when there is almost certainly a more appropriate system out there.
But hey, at the end of the day, if you manage to make it work in the end, more power to you. It’s your time, not mine.
If I had to pick a side I’d tentatively say I’m a One True System-er, not so much because *I* want to stick with a system but more because it’s less of a headache to tweak the one *my group* is used to than to get them to move… But then again, with the current events, I’ve decided to make the jump from 5e to PF2e. I’m currently a PC in a 5e campaign, and I’ll keep playing in it (and since we started not so long ago it’ll probably keep going for a while), but once that’s over I’ll pitch a PF2e campaign. I’ve been interested in PF2e for a while, that’s just the excuse I needed to finally take the leap.
Hello fellow 5E refugee! My thoughts exactly. Good luck with the new system!
I sometimes like to conceive of RPG rules as a language to describe rather than a prison to contain. Some languages are better for poetry (English) than clarity (Esperanto). You can describe anything in either. But even if Esperanto is more efficient at conveying information, there is a certain pleasure in the artistry of making English stand up and dance.
In the same way, I think that getting 5e to do “superpowered football with high stakes politics” could be a fun challenge for some kinds of player. For others it’s an exercise in madness. It all depends on what you’re trying to describe in the language of rules.
well, as far as D&D is concerned: I bought nearly all core books of 3.75 (P1e) and have enough material to DM 8 campaigns. This will probably keep me supplied till I kick the bucket, or at least retirement.
Two of my DMs are definitely RPG Sommeliers. They regularly get rules of editions mixed up; which slows down gameplay.
I knew I’d miss Thaumaturge. 🙁
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/edition-warrior
Personally, I like to focus on one system (Pathfinder 1e), but would love to branch out to other systems for one shots. I just can’t ever get anyone to try the cool indie game I found and impulse bought because I fooled myself into thinking getting a group would be easy, because LOOK HOW COOL IT LOOKS!
*Stares sadly at Animon Story*
I don’t get it. You invite your buddies to try a one-shot but nobody responds? Why does it fail to generate interest?
I can imagine plenty of “why do you want us to stop our years-long campaign and fully commit to OTHER THING” type scenarios being an issue, but I obviously don’t know if that’s a factor in your group.
Currently I don’t actually have a *group*, but none of my friends who play TTRPGs respond or they say they don’t have time. It was much the same when I did have a group. Even if I could fix the scheduling issues I’d only have one, maybe two players if I’m lucky.
We’re fairly mixed. D&D (in various editions over time) has always been something of a default for the group — but we also also play a lot of other stuff, usually when someone offers to run something different which has caught their attention. We’ve played a fair bit of Call of Cthulhu over the years, but also dabbled in a wide variety of other systems and genres…
See my response to Louis Kolkman further up the thread.
Weird how so many of us pick D&D as the ol’ reliable system. I wonder if it’s because it’s well-supported and first-past-the-post, or if there’s something about the alchemy of fantasy setting + dungeon-running that makes it a standout “Sun” for a hobby?
One word: MARKETING. D&D has the support of Hasbro, who have it as a goal to shove it down as many people’s throats as possible. That and the fact that it came first I think are pretty major reasons why that game has such a big place in the culture that basically no other game does.
Well, yeah… every single gamer I know got into the hobby through *some* incarnation of D&D. Mid 3rd edition in my case, though others in my group go back further since they started playing as kids… others I know are younger and started on 4e or 5e, or maybe Pathfinder (which is close enough to the same thing). So yes, it’s hardly surprising that some flavour of D&D remains something of a default for us to fall back on…
Mine is a fairly adventurous group. It helps that they’d dipped their toes into several systems before I’d even met them. Not quite sommeliers, but certainly willing to broaden their horizons. We were planning a Final Fantasy d20 campaign for a while, but inspiration struck one of our members and we’ve switched gears to Lancer.
How long do your campaigns last? I’ve got a pet theory that it’s all down to long-form vs. short-form gaming, but I’d have to run some proper quant to know if that holds water.
Sorry for the delay; hope you see this.
Our campaigns don’t often last very long; maybe a dozen sessions or so before life starts getting in the way. (I have a good feeling about this one, though!)
My group is usually pretty mired in 5e these days. They’re all open to trying new systems, but the number of games we collectively *want* to play is much greater than the number of games we have time as a group to play, so we have to pick and choose carefully. Someday I’ll finally run my Mork Borg game.
The tragedy is, every time we try a different system, the game falls apart after just a few sessions. We’ve tried Thirsty Sword Lesbians, Skyfarer, and BESM, which are all notably more rules-light than 5e. Don’t get me wrong, we had a good time! But it quickly became obvious that the GM at the helm (usually me) simply didn’t know how to structure a session outside of the DnD formula, and the players weren’t sure how to get the most out of their characters. When it became clear that we were floundering, we called it off.
We haven’t given up, though! You’d think these failures would make new systems a hard sell, but one of our regulars wants to run a RWBY-styled campaign once her work clears up, and another has been dreaming of a Persona game for ages. Personally, I’ve started looking into learning Pathfinder 2. It may take months or years for the stars to align such that we get to play them, but, well, we have time.
A local gaming group (not mine) are huge Mork Borg fans! I’ve never played, but they seem to be having a great time, dying and/or exploding from silly things.
My crew is definitely “one true system”. Learning a game of this size and depth is a massive intellectual investment, and my team are very busy people! While we mainline D&D 5E, we did try Blades in the Dark for a solid 10 sessions. Afterwards, their verdict was hilariously damning: “We love the characters, setting, and story, but wish it was D&D”.
We’ve homebrewed a French Revolution total conversion and we’re about to start a magic school (NOT Harry Potter!) campaign that is built from the ground up. Instead of character sheets, we get handcrafted spell books from the DM :).
I had been playing 2nd edition AD&D until 2016, so it’s hardly surprising we are a group of “one true system”. That said, with the OGL debacle we are preparing to make the jump to Pathfinder 2E. After the magic school, we’ll run at least one campaign in Pathfinder, and we’ll see where that takes us!
You’ll often hear RPG Sommeliers say that, “Learning a system is not THAT hard.” I wonder where the disconnect lies? Why is it a trivial task for some and an impossible time sink for others?
I think this has to do with prior knowledge of the system you use, and the (unspoken and implied) expectations about a new system. If all you know is D&D, which is a quit (combat) rules heavy system, and it took you a good time to learn/get all the ins and outs of, then any other system “must” also be very (combat)rules heavy, and therefor will need a large investment in time (and/or money) to get to the same level of knowledge/familiarity as your previous system. Also players that come to a game for the (combat) crunch might not be very happy, or comfortable, with more story/social focused games.
Sorry for the double post, but wanting a bit of feedback. Has anyone played Monster of the Week? I picked up the second edition rules since my wife is a diehard Supernatural fan, and having read through it, the rules seem kinda borked? Especially the Crooked’s character class? Does the game work well?
Never tried it. I suggest asking here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/monsteroftheweek/
You’re more likely to get a balanced response here though:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PBtA/
General PBtA folk should have a broader perspective than folks that specifically stan that title.
It’s certainly not borked, though if you’re coming from a mostly-D&D background, you may find it jarring… PBTA variants do require a shift in thinking to get the most out of them.
My group is pretty devoted to their One True System of Pf1e; they crave the abundance of class and feat options as a means of expression, and know it well enough to use it that way. Any new system I’ve tried to get them to use is either too simple or too unknown.
For my part; I enjoy how 5e simplified a lot of things, and was easier (comparatively speaking) to adapt old AD&D modules to. Though I’m notably reluctant to just play an oldschool system, for some reason.
I’ve been curious about OSR gameplay for a while now. I do love me some dungeons after all. Unfortunately, being a grad student, I have exactly zero time for my own hobby just now. Heavy friggin’ sigh, bro. :/
Over the years I’ve played dozens of RPGs, but I realize that while I’ve enjoyed most of them, what I’ve been looking for was a big, generic rules set that I could hang pretty much any genre or setting on.
With 3.X and D20, (plus a little Pathfinder 1.0 and some homebrew), I think I’ve found it.
Admittedly, I’m as reluctant to accept change as your average Doctor Who fan: I grumbled at AD&D’s tables and longed for the simplicity of the Basic Set until Unearthed Arcana came along (then hated on portions of that book). I never really embraced 2e until 3rd edition appeared, and then was late to the party to embrace that version. I’ve never liked 4th edition, but there are elements of 5e that I don’t dislike (and that make up parts of my homebrew house rules).
Now if I can only get the rest of Game Night to listen to me. They agree that Hide & Move Silently should just be Stealth. They agree that Listen & Spot (and Sniff & Ponder & lord-knows-what-else) should just be Perception. BUT they still have those darn printed copies of the 3.0 Players Handbook, so obsolete spells, spell descriptions, and things like Wilderness Lore and Alchemy keep popping up unexpectedly in the middle of a session. (…and always at the worst moment for the storytelling drama. Ain’t it always the way?)
I guess GURPS and Savage Worlds are the other big contenders for “big tent system” in my head. Any luck with those?
Never tried Savage Worlds. GURPS horror, scifi, and superheroes got a try years back, and the system wasn’t bad. Better in theory than in practice, IMHO. I remember that we had one superhero who was sword & shield themed who was more effective bare-handed for some reason (quirky rules, poor build, or rules misapplied, perhaps).
I’d position myself at somewhere in the middle. Most of the rules can be generic, but then you do need some campaign-specific rules “for flavor”.
Because, for example, playing a wizard in D&D is a completely different experience from playing a wizard in Ars Magica and both are completely different from playing a wizard in Mage Sorcerer’s Crusade. These differences are not just due to the settings, but also from the mechanics: what you can do, and how you do it. There’s an obscure French game (Reve de Dragon, which was translated in English as Reve: Dream Ouroboros IIRC) where spellcasting was done by traveling “mentally” on a grid map with each tile being a terrain type: plain, swamp, river, mountain, city, etc. And spells had “geographical” requirement, maybe it could be any wet tile (swamp, river, coast…) or maybe it could be one specific tile (Sorded City is the only place where you can summon the Sord Warrior), so you had to spent combat rounds moving across your mindscape while in a transe, hoping nothing breaks your concentration until you can reach where you need to go to cast your spell.
Obviously it’s going to be a very different game if hacking a computer only requires an Intelligence + Technology roll compared to if you go on a wild Tron-like VR adventure fighting Black ICE bots and stuff.
Rêve: The Dream Ouroboros is an interesting game for that magic system, which is one of the few that gives magic a non-mechanical, non-superpower feel. But the artwork was also really excellent.
I was in a campaign recently where the GM not only changed systems, he also changed VTTs a couple times. It started to become a bit of a private joke. “Which VTT are we playing this week?” was a common question.
The use of VTT adds a whole new dimension to this. Because we have players that absolutely hate VTTs and other players that can’t stand the classic tabletop and miniature route.
As for what camp I’m in? I’m in the esoteric “Whatever dude, I just want to drink my cocktail and roll some dice” camp. Sometimes known as the “Look, I’ll play Bunnies and Burrows for all I care.” camp.
I’m somewhere in the middle, setting up camp slightly closer to One True Systemia’s borders, but not by much. I have now played a couple of sessions of PF2e, though no combat yet, and can definitively say I will not be learning it to the point of GMing it at any point, but I also don’t believe 5e will answer all my needs. It’s great for the classic sword and sorcery game which is my bread and butter, but I also like playing as a giant robot pilot, or a super hero, or a dozen other things. Some of them can be wrangled into one of the systems I’m already familiar with, but not all of them fit so easily, and I’m not opposed to cracking open a new book to play a space mercenary in the Schlockiverse, or a JRPG party, orwhat have you.
I suddenly find myself wondering if I’m the only person around here who actually owns a copy of Skyrealms of Jorune. (As an aside, if you ever run into a Chessex booth at a convention – say PAX – they still sell them…)
Lol. That’s awesome! I picked the most random-sounding game I could find from a wiki.
What’s it actually like?
By modern standards, overly detailed. But it’s sort of par for the course for the time it was written. Lots of stats, lots of skills, and a really detailed world full of alien species. Interestingly, because it’s not intended to be a game about running around, killing people and taking their stuff, it comes of as somewhat adversarial in places, as it advises the GM (called the Sholari in the rules) to make life difficult for players who want to go the murderhobo route.
A pair of things going on here today…
Firstly I think some people got the misconception you are talking about changing systems mid-campaign. I have a few thoughts/rules on The Dreaded System Change:
1 – Know Thy Crew
If your group is full up with One True Systemites, any change is bad, but changing mid-stream is triply bad.
2 – Never Change Mid-Campaign
The biggest problems with a mid-stream system shift is quite often someone’s PC could do something awesome and flavorful under the old crunch that they can no longer do under the new crunch. Never take away the PC’s awesome things due to a rules shift, only due to it not fitting the flavor of the genre or because it’s from an abuse of the system. Also when one PC is limted under the old crunch and can now stomp on everyone else’s niche due to the new limitless system… All I’m saying is Tread Carefully.
3 – Unless You Know What You Are Doing
And your crew is down for it. Then run free, run wild, have all the badwrongfun.
Secondly GURPS fits in both One True System and RPG Sommelier sides of the coin. It has a core set of rules, but everything else that is tacked on is optional. You can run both grim, gritty super crunchy rules where even blood loss is tracked*, as well as “high concept narrative” styles. It’s all down to what optional rules the GM is using.
Now, that said, amongst GURPS aficionados, you get both One True Wayers as well as Sommeliers and game rules discussions can get very deep into the weeds on the SJG forums, because even those like myself† who hew to the “fluffier more narrative” side still cling to our clearly defined and delineated crunch.**
.* It’s an abstract and gamified system for blood loss, but there is an optional rule for it and I’ve had PCs die from blood lose despite being “brought back from the brink of death” because the miracle working healer couldn’t heal //all// their wounds in time. As well as PCs who silently bleed to death alone, left behind when the party fled the TPK… (or stuck in traps they couldn’t get free from, wounded and no healers, etc. Blood Loss, the silent killer)
† I mean, not really for me. I’m all about experimenting with new options, trying new ways to tweak GURPS. I frequently argued with the rules designers who are One True Wayers (before my permaban) and always tried to offer optional ways to handle something when other GMs had “problems” with how the core and optional systems worked.
.** For instance I was running a Fallout inspired Survival Horror/High Cinematics game at the end of last year where I used plenty of Player Narrative Controls (that’s how I prefer to roll and invite high action cinematic nonsense) but still had hard and crunchy rules for sanity, fear, and corruption…
As I’ve written before, my main system is a home brew that is a frankenstein monster of many different systems, with the main parts coming from AD&D 1e/2e and SPI’s Dragon Quest (before TSR got their hands on it). I still add things into it when I run across things that will fit. I just snitched pieces of several of the Animal Adventures and worked them in. Now playing an awakened animal is possible for the players.
I will usually use a known system if I’m going out of my usual high fantasy. Things like Top Secret, Star Wars, Gamma World. And hubby has particular systems he likes to run when I’m not running (Ravenloft, Top Secret and Boot Hill)
I’ve even run a space based game that ran off them setting their characters up according to the Space Opera system. After that, there were no dice rolls, no paper other than to make sure they kept track of items they had and even that wasn’t really important. For the next couple years, the game consisted of us talking through what was going on with their characters, usually with a glass of alcoholic beverage and MTV (the original, where they actually played music videos) playing in the background. Or a five minute session when they had an idea. Nothing planned, nothing worked out ahead of time. It was totally extemporaneous theater and was a hoot. This really only worked because it was me and my two roommates doing it though, so we were around each other the majority of the time other than work.
I feel for anyone that is glued to their system. You miss so much opportunity to fall in love with new mechanics, wonderful settings and excellent adventures. Even if your system isn’t flexible enough to fit them in, you can still enjoy forays into them without being disloyal to your main system.
I’m definitely the Sommelier. I figure trying to play any non-D&D system goes hand in hand with the way that I’ve shunned movies and television in favor of MST3K and the twenty five or so webcomics in my feed. (Yes, I know that’s a SHAMEFUL number, but hush.)
I’m not sure if I should be more or less ashamed of the 51 active webcomics that I follow. I should probably catch up on a few more actually.
… and the ungodly amount of manga/manhua/manhwa. I’m on at least three different aggregate sites for those.
If you are going to change the handbook system do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Powered by the Apocalypse? 🙂
But Handbook doesn’t have a system. It is an internally consistent fantasy world divorced from any set of rules or game mechanics. >_>
Yet it have editions 🙂
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/HH153.png
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/HH199.png
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/HH473.png
And errata 🙂
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HH181-1.png
As magical technique advances, heroes must update their magical repertoire in kind. When the entirety of the magical community tips from one paradigm to the next, it is known as “Edition Change.” This has a ripple effect in the ecology of Handbook-World (as in the case of vampire defense techniques), the rapid evolution of vermin (as with the rot grubs), and in the natural weaknesses left by a given suite of spells (as in the disastrous X.5 update that Oracle references).
I mean come on. What do you think brought about the second and third most recent End Times?
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/size-differential
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/astronomical-event
A poorly managed Edition Change is among the most dangerous magical events in Handbook-World.
As for the creature known as Errata, it is an artifact of rapid Edition Change. When practitioners begin to lose track of their own magecraft, forgetting which Edition is which and mistaking one spell for another, they may begin to perceive that shift and change as a living entity with its own agenda. Scholars largely dismiss Errata as a hallucination brought on by the cognitive strain of too many Edition Changes hitting too quickly.
XD
I like how you came with this reasonable explanation 😀
As someone who are very interested in getting into Powered by the Apocalypse, I do have some issues with trying to figure out how to structure a session. I have done some pretty free-form/story focused games before. But PBTA just sorta falls in a gray area for me, where it is difficult for me to visualize how to set it up or how to have the players play it.
It both seems very lose with what you can do, as the rolls are often very broad, but at the same time very specific with some of the handbooks.
The problem is that 5E is overall the best at what I need and is what all my friends play. The OneD&D playtest has been dedicated to keeping all of 5E’s problems, and “Fixing” the parts that worked well, so I won’t be playing 6E unless Crawford gets his head out of his ass, or someone more competent like Perkins takes over.
PF2 looks good, but overall it’s a more granular, less balanced 4E, with a lot of little things that bug me, and none of my group wants to learn a new edition so I’m stuck with 5E.
Try Anima Prime sometime. See how that’s received.
Try PF1 if you like 5e. It’s like the further refinement of the 3e chasis where 5e is the slimmed down version. Just do yourself a favor and start with just the Player’s Handbook and Advanced Player’s Guide first.
See the problem with PF1 is that it’s based on 3X, and you can’t polish a turd.
The only people who think 5E is like 3X are people that started with 3X. Honestly there’s almost no 3X in 5E, and 5E is better for it. The worst parts of 5E (Sorcerer as a dedicated PHB class, level-based multiclassing) originate in 3X, and that’s about it.
I will say I have met a lot of 5e players, even in real life, who seems oddly resistant to the idea of trying, or even taking a loot at, another system (At least before the whole OGL situation). While I have encountered it with other systems, it has never really been to the same degree as with 5e players. Most of them just didn’t see a reason to try another system or believe that there was anything to learn from trying one. Which is weird to me, as I think reading and trying as many systems as possible is very healthy as both a DM and a player (Through it is very unhealthy for my wallet and shelf space…).
As for my groups, I have generally been blessed with players who are curious about other systems. So while we have all agreed on trying new systems when we finish our current 5e campaign, we have the issue that we are all busy adults, so finding the time to actually finish that campaign might take a while.
I think that might have to do with what people want out of a RPG. D&D is very good as a Game, and has been described as a skirmish game with some roleplaying tacked on. But, especially in later editions, it is very good at balance. Which means that, within the restricted world of the ruleset, it gives the players the possibility of for seemingly endless variants, without being forced to think about power imbalance, and it gives them a “save” social environment to try and enact power-fantasies themselves. Most of the perceived premises of other RPG’s are far less contained, and/or balanced, or more socially/storytelling oriented, which is not what those players want, need or seek. Just my two cents
Well my current trial and tribulation is trying to get someone in my group to run Scum & Villainy for me. I really want to play it and even though we’re each taking our rounds as GM, I’m not sure I’ll be able to convince one of them to do so. One of them has already adamantly stated they have no interest in running it.
As for what campy I’m in…. I guess sort of inbetween? I have trouble keeping too many systems in my head, but I certainly want more options than just D&D and Blades if I’m playing something that those aren’t really made for. I’m recently broadening my horizons due to the others in my group wanting run systems I have no experience with and most likely otherwise wouldn’t have touched.
My group are mostly in the “try anything once” camp when it comes to systems, shorter campaigns help with that. It helps that I have a fair sized library of different rulebooks, mostly for the sake of stealing cool mechanics to homebrew into other systems. However, we do have (playful) arguements about which edition of D&D is superior.
Our DM (when I’m not DMing) is looking into making the switch to Pathfinder 2e at the moment, and I’ve ran a few Scion 2e/FATE accelerated one-shots to get our feet wet for a longer campaign in either one. For the former, it’s a lot more minutiae than I tend to like, but the clarity and overall modular nature of everything is pretty great. I just wish there were some clear feat trees or the like available. We’re currently looking into an adventure path to try out.
Generally, I think the biggest hurdle for switching is the first switch(es) after using a specific system for a long time. I’ve had some fun trying to recreate the same character concept in different systems, and that definitely helps make things “click” when switching between systems.
Trying to get my current group in a new system wasn’t too difficult.
“Hey, our PF GM is feeling burnt out. Anyone else wanna do it for a while?”
“Hey, you guys wanna try D&D 4e? I’m a big fan of 4e.”
And then I ran some D&D 4e.
Maybe some day I’ll get them to try out 13th Age as well, but most of them are on the “more crunch” side of things and I doubt they’d enjoy the entirely gridless combat and a rulebook that often says stuff like “idk man, do what makes sense”.
I’m in between. I like having a core system I know really well, but I am always open to try something new. Rule at our table though is if you want to try a new system, you have to GM it.
It’s how we went from 5E to PF2E, I was willing to run a game when our 5E GM needed to focus on other things for a while, so I started a PF2E game with Extinction Curse. Originally the intent was to eventually switch between them regularly, but the 5E Gm liked PF2E that the old campaign got transitioned instead.
It’s more like I feel different systems do different things well. D20 is highly accessible *from 3e on.* HERO allows you to make your guy your way (or so they say, I feel like it’s empty promises). Palladium allows you to meaningfully consider defense and ripostes as opposed to just getting whacked or not.
If I have one true system, it would be Palladium. It’s smooth, it generally works well, and there’s enough information that homebrewing things that are missing isn’t very onerous. But it’s a bit obscure, so I’m stuck with D20 in one group and HERO’s filthy dirty lies in the other.
…I should also mention that I have a tendency to power game out of spite and/or contempt for people who don’t let me play what I want. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ESPECIALLY if there’s a guy playing an invulnerable juggernaut and the GM is cool with it. …should watch that one, I can attest that the unassuming normal guy MAY sink a continent if that’s going on. It’s happened TWICE.
I would dearly love to be the Sommelier, but alas, the most experienced of my gaming friends have played 3.5e as well as 5e. So, since we don’t play IRL very much, and I don’t want to have to try to introduce things where I can’t just pass the books around to help people figure stuff out, my shelf of Exalted and Pathfinder and Paranoia and VtM and Expanse etc. etc. goes unused in hopes of a better tomorrow.
So it goes.
As a part of a roleplaying group that has multiple GMs and multiple systems going all the time, learning new systems can be occasionally be rough but they allow better differentiation between games.
My dear partner started an urban fantasy game several years ago using the Monster of the Week pbta system. After two campaigns in that system solving supernatural crimes, we switched to Masks playing the next generation of heroes in the same universe, which linked superhero work with college drama and romance. Then my partner’s brother made a 5e game set between the MotW and Masks games, which featured a more combat heavy style with his friend group (I got invited to reprise a MotW character statted up to defeat said party after they went murderhobo on a movie theater receptionist). Then I stepped up for a Dark Streets & Darker Secrets game set around the same time which went back to investigative work, with a low powered scooby gang battling demonic conspiracies. When that game reaches it’s conclusion, my partner will be taking the reigns again, this time in Urban Shadows, following a crew of gangsters in 1929 Hollywood in a battle for respect in the supernatural underworld. I’m excited for that game because I get to play a undead cowboy.
Is learning a bunch of new systems a little time consuming? Occasionally. But there are a lot of easy to learn systems out there, and it’s always fun to play a game that doesn’t have a large fandom which has statted out the optimal strategies for character building.