Pick on Someone Your Own Size
This may come as a shock, but The Handbook of Heroes is not the only fantasy tabletop RPG webcomic out there. Crazy, I know. But it would be remiss of us not to cite our influences from time to time. The Handbook in general, and today’s comic in particular, owes a debt to DM of the Rings. This page is especially relevant to today’s proceedings. Every time I face down a colossal dragon or a towering treant, I remember Legolas working harder than halfling in a hotdog eating contest to get that Mûma-kill. (That may be why I cited the same comic last time Pug fought a much-larger opponent.)
But rather than rehashing the power of imagination to overcome all obstacles, let’s talk about the other side of the coin. When is it better to avoid the technically-legal, generally-effective maneuver, just because it happens to make no damn sense? For me, the simple answer is “when you’re the GM.”
When you’re the guy behind the cardboard screen, you’ve got the lion’s share of narrative power. You get to describe how the universe works, and you’ve got all manner of tools to paint a picture of the fantastic. That includes sweet minis, cool SFX, and the very finest in polygonal reveals. But shiny tricks and evocative visual aids aside, the engine that really drives an RPG is the interplay between rules and narrative. And if the rules happen to disagree with the narrative you’re building, the machinery of fantasy grinds to a halt. There happens to be a term for this phenomenon. And if your players have ever stopped to ask how a monster managed to target them (“You said it uses tremorsense, but I’m flying!”), how poison is being applied mid-combat (“I thought the assassin was using a flaming sword!”), or what physical contortions a 7 ft. tall minotaur would have to endure to gore a 2 ft. tall kobold (“Pug demands a detailed illustration before she accepts damage!”) you may have seen this “ludonarrative dissonance” stuff in action. That doesn’t mean you should immediately relinquish your authority as GM and cave to player demands. But if you can’t come up with a decent explanation, and if the best fiction you can concoct is “the rules say it’s legal,” you might want to side with your players.
Question of the day then! When have you encountered a situation that, while technically legal, didn’t make any sense within the fiction? Did the GM stick to their guns, or did the “wait a minute, that don’t make no sense” crowd win the day? Tell us your tale of ludonarrative whoopsies down in the comments!
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Obviously, they pick up the kobold and gore them. Or they kick the kobold up to head height like a hackysack and gore them.
It picks me up? Did it roll to grapple!? Why are you cheating!?!? REEEEEEEE!!!!
If you ask me, today’s comic is more a depiction of what happens when you crit-miss a gore attack than anything. Just tilt your head to the side a little and bam, you’ve got a stabbing angle with that horn.
Anyone who’s watched videos of bull-fighting, bull rodeo or running of the bulls accident can get a pretty good example of how a gore works against a creature smaller than the diameter of the horns.
After all, you only need to hit with one of the pointy bits to murderize a PC. Just look at the common rhino or unicorn (as seen in Cabin in the Woods).
The actual ludonarrative dissonance would come from the horns, after successfully impaling a PC, having to come out of them, without being stuck head-first into someone’s torso or pulling a bunch of organs out in the process.
For me, the issue isn’t the diameter of the horns. It’s the height difference. Most bulls aren’t bipedal.
Mechanically, the height difference is represented by the AC bonuses the small folk get. Or by using the horns like a bull does – a combination of hooking/impaling you like a ragdoll, headbutting you, and throwing you into the air to get further impaled or tossed to the ground where it can then trample your ass or impale you from the floor.
In the minotaur’s case, it’s probably utilizing gladiator tactics, using its hands, legs and brawn to push, shove, trip, yank or punch the target into the path of the horns.
I’d argue that it is a case of adapting the attack to make more sense. A bull can actually lower its head near the ground at a run, while a minotaur is a biped incapable of generating enough speed on all fours to make that work. A bull’s horns aren’t particularly sharp and can even snap in a badly timed attack; the damage tends to come either from a charge-like impact, catching and throwing, or trampling, in which the mass of the animal is more important than the horns. So the gore could be a stomp or kick attack instead. Think of the Warcraft meme about the alleged Tauren sport of gnome putting.
Or turn a charge attack into a trample attack. Etc. Add Reflex/Dex save as necessesary for verisimilitude.
That level of reflavoring makes a lot of sense to me. It is tough when you’re trying to reconcile it with something like impaling charge though:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/impaling-charge-monster/
To be clear, I wouldn’t let a player get away with, “My character is small! I should be immune to gore attacks from bipedal creatures!” But it does create an awkward moment where you’ve got to imagine a minotaur leaping into the air, falling like an Olympic high diver, and sticking in the ground like a giant lawn dart. Resolving that goofy mental image into something more sensible is the real trick.
This looks to be the start of a very adorable friendship.
And quite possibly a permanent one if they can’t wriggle loose.
How bad would Brawler’s Escape Artist check and/or how amazing Minotaur’s di-uh, diplomacy would have to be for that to happen?
Well, I don’t have a real answer to this storytime prompt, but your choice of DM of the Rings strip reminds me of the fight that cemented my fighter as the memetic badass of the group.
We were traveling on horseback in the forest at level 5, when we had an encounter with some highwaymen. Second round, BOOM real encounter, big four armed carnivorous ape monster jumps out of the trees and attacks us. I turn around, charge it, leap off my horse, and cling to its back. I then landed two crits and some other attacks before being thrown off- it was still attacking me and I had to make Strength saves every time it landed a hit. By the time I was on the ground again, it had an imposing ten hit points.
And they say the free hand isn’t a big enough bonus to use a longsword without a shield.
As a Glass Cannon Podcast fan, the whole climbing on critters thing has been on my mind lately thanks to this archetype:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/vexing-dodger/
Having to drop weapons and quickdraw replacements just to do the central schtick of your character seems like a poopy option. Happily, someone pointed out this mess recently:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-trick-combat/#:~:text=Piercing%20Climb,-Additional%20Prerequisite(s&text=You%20can%20use%20piercing%20weapons,even%20while%20distracted%20or%20endangered.
the best example I can think of stands out in my mind because it happened recently, but it was not the GM against us, it was my character against the NPC…
I am playing a monk, and at level 4 I took the feat Sentinel because it is great for stopping a foe from leaving a space when my intent and design is a secondary tank.
We were up against a dragon and it used one of its legendary actions to fly away. Part of that action is it has a chance to knock down people near it. My monk was one of the people it knocked down.
Despite being knocked down, taking damage, being three size categories smaller than the dragon, and just generally “How the heck you gonna stop a DRAGON from flying away if it wants to!” In looking at the rules of Sentinel, it says NOTHING about being unable to use it in any of those situations…
so for THREE ROUNDS I kept the dragon right next to me and we all kind of wrote it off as epic monk skillz (and the DM even did a hilarious job of describing it as me channeling my chi and hooking my ankle on its claw and “pulling it” back down to the ground… all animanga style!)
Sometimes, it might not make sense, but if it works in anime, it can works for us!
I would have ruled it that you were constantly knocking his wings out of sync for him to takeoff properly, or possibly pinning his wing into the ground with your sword on the downbeat.
Of course if I was the DM, I would have remembered that players only get one reaction per ROUND, and Sentinel only drops its speed to zero for the rest of that TURN (you could have stopped its legendary action movement, or its movement on its own turn, but not both)
I hope I didn’t ruin that scene for you. I recommend thanking your DM either way, but it’s entirely up to you if you tell him what he could have “fixed” there.
didn’t ruin a thing and we DO only get one reaction per turn (as per the rules). On its turn it tried to get away… and our Barbarian with Sentinel stopped it XD
Sentinel rocks!
Los Tiburon you say?
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Los_Tiburon
Honestly, the drawing itself shows that the gore attack is VERY effective, it’s all just a matter of hitting AC, and well that’s what the dice in Attack Rolls decide.
Honestly, I’ve never encountered a situation where following the 5e rules accurately led to something that couldn’t be easily explained with some basic creativity.
How do you stab a Fire or Wind Elemental to death with an ordinary dagger?
You’re disrupting the energies/elemental force/whatever that keeps the elemental as a discrete individual rather than a normal blob of fire or air. Every time you hit the elemental physically, you’re displacing part of it, and it either loses mass/elemental power/what have you or has to spend energy to pull itself back together.
Granted, you’re not forcing it to spend very much energy if all you’re using is a dagger, and without an enchantment on the weapon to allow you to strike directly at the elemental’s animating force, it’s even less effective, but eventually, you’ll pull off the Death of a Thousand Cuts. (Assuming you can avoid dying a horrible burny death, that is.)
Elementals have resistance to nonmagical physical damage. So attacking them isn’t as effective as attacking a normal beast or humanoid, just like what you’d expect.
One gamer’s “basic creativity” is another gamer’s immersion breaking nonsense. That’s the trouble with RPGs, 5e included. Your opinion is never the only one that counts, and reconciling everyone’s vision of the interaction is a negotiation.
The only thing coming to mind is being on the receiving end as a player, from GMs who can’t get past the name of a class feature. Case in point, “sneak attack” damage, which I was constantly denied during my short lived attempt to play a rogue in 3e. Even though mechanically 3e allows more than just hiding to trigger the damage, the GM for that game refused to allow it for anything less than total obliviousness of my existence.
Yup. This is one that comes up frequently. Someone gets a narrow view of what the rule represents and is unwilling to readjust to align with the actual mechanics. Not much fun to be the rogue player that day.
If you want to get into the ‘how the heck does that work?’ discussions, look no further than fights where you beat an elemental to deal with blunt force trauma. Because somehow, cutting a water elemental will eventually kill it. As will a fire/magma/lightning/wind elemental.
There’s also a few monsters where you are ‘enabled’ to target specific body parts only because it’s the monster’s weakness. For example, barring called shot rules or vorpal weaponry, you can’t cut the head of any creature directly in combat unless it’s a multi-headed hydra or similar creature you’re ‘supposed’ to cut the head off of.
Had a GM once upon a time who couldn’t wrap his head around my pet behir grappling an air elemental.
“It doesn’t make sense!” he said.
“But the rules!” I said.
“Tell you what. Roll a nat 20 and I’ll give it to you.”
That was one of the more satisfying nat 20s of my career.
Was this comic inspired by OSP’s latest video, or is this merely a coincidence?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_1s_UZfs5c&feature=youtu.be
Coincidence. It’s almost as if the tropes of fantasy gaming have some sort of a common source in world culture….
In our setting between the rules and lore our DM got confused sometimes. That we don’t use a single rules system for every part of it doesn’t help. But he is learning… still… after so many years :/
On a side note. Colin, if i can ask. Which ones would be your preferred Webcomics? Outside of the HBoH of course. Which one do you read to relax and have a good time without Laurel threatening you with a Stylus for putting too much characters in a single page? 😛
my webcomic reading has… not been a thing lately. grad school eats my time. that said:
order of the strick
dm of the rings
xkcd
table titans
Just that? You must be very busy. I counted mine, 22. And that are just the ones i bother to check weekly. At least you got some reading with those 🙂
Share them titles, bro! I really ought to read more if I’m going to continue in this business.
The 22? Okay ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Order of the stick – Adventures with stick figures that don’t need presentation 🙂
Paranatural – Kids need to deal with ghost and the teachers’ past in one of the best made plots there are in a webcomic 😀
Parallax – Coming out from an almost years hiatus, only to receive a proper ending. The adventures of Lomax in a new town after becoming a magical boy-knight 🙂
Awaken – The only better than the plot are the character in this comic. Piras find that many of the things he believe are false when he joins the very terrorist group that threatens his city 😀
Scandinavia and the World – Sometimes silly, sometimes funny but always with a good anecdotes of the northern countries, its people and culture 🙂
The Handbook of Heroes – This one you will like. Very funny and the guy that make it respond the comments… sometimes. The art is quite good and keep the quality even if it changes style 😀
Ghost Junk Sickness – Vahn and Trigger are bounty hunter with a past behind and the Ghost in front of them. Even if in B&W it’s excellent 😀
Girl Genius – The epic adventures of the last Heterodyne Heiress in an alternate steampunk Europe and its intrigues. Epic in plot, characters and longitude 🙂
Darths & Droids – Think DM of the Rings but with Star Wars. Better humor and at the same time one of the best and silliest plots that one can come 😀
The Rock Cocks – NSFW as hell. Hands down, but not that down, wink-wink, the best plot with porn that is. Punk rock, sexuality and managers wars 😀
[Un]Divine – Want to resolve your problems? Invoque a demon! What is the worst it can happen? Well, Danny will sure find that. Currently on semi-hiatus, new pages only on Patreon, but still very good 🙂
The Glass Scientist – Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde in a steampunk London full of Rogue science. Many things will break, trust, glass, friendship and the market 🙂
Harpy Gee – A small town full of particular character get a new one when Harpy goes there and start making friends of several of them 🙂
Demon for Hire – Zeek goes to Sin City, not that one, to meet his old friend Campbell. He wouldn’t be able to finish first chapter without everything becoming a hell of a ride 😀
The Thief Heir – Aeon is a thief with a dark past. As forces both of light and darkness move their pawns he may be unable to leave run anymore 😀
Webtoon:
Castle Swimmer – BL story of mermen and sirens. Kappa is the beacon that will bring happiness to everyone and accomplish the ancient prophecies. Siren is fated to kill him. Will they manage to be together when they fall in love? 😀
School Bus Graveyard – In hiatus? :/ A group of teens reunited for a school project will need to unite to survive the horrors they have unleash 🙂
Darkness in Love – BL story of Reese who find himself as the object of love of Darkness itself. Too bad Reese has other things to deal than with him 🙂
Immortal Weakling – It will remind you of My Hero Academy and for good reason. Still quite fun and with very good characters. Gorgothar the spirit crusher is my favorite 😀
Para-Professional – Two boys go to a haunted house and find more than they want. The ghosts will test their friendship as they may become apart 😀
How I Unintentionally Became a Serial Killer – Oliver finds himself and the target of a serial killer and while he may be able to live a little more there will be blood on his hands 😀
Spirit Warriors – As he train to become the defender of his village Aigon find that ambition may lead to ruins. Currently on Hiatus 🙁
May I offer, as far as ‘campaign comics’ go:
Darths and Droids
One piece 3.5
Friendship is Dragons
Darths and Droids – read it 🙂
One piece 3.5 – Will not bother with anything One Piece related 🙁
Friendship is Dragons – With a title like that i am scared to even check 🙁
“campaign comics” maybe are not my style. I look for other things 🙂
I feel like this is kind of the issue with HP as a concept in a lot of games.
In Fallout and other shooters there’s the classic situation firing a .50 round through an enemy’s head but not killing them, because although doing that to person would make their head burst like a watermelon, it doesn’t do enough HP damage to kill someone.
In RPGs like D&D there’s the issue of NPC health and blows that should reasonably be fatal or attacks that you would think would apply certain effects. Like as a player you might think someone that is grappled or restrained couldn’t cast somatic spells, but neither of those conditions explicitly prevent it. You might think slitting someone’s throat would kill them instantly or at the least stop them from speaking, but because your attack didn’t do enough damage to deplete their HP pool and nothing in the mechanics says anything about organ damage they somehow survived and then cast Power Word Kill on you. As a player, it feels stupid. As a DM trying to justify that stuff in-world feels like robbing my players via DM fiat.
– “Oh uh, you thought you slit his throat but right before you cut him he
wiggled in just the right way that the cut was too shallow.”
– “Yeah you’re standing right in the middle of the dragon’s flame breath when
you get hit, but you’re not instantly crispy because uh…reasons??”
The ludonarrative dissonance is so real.
All you can do in those situations is tapdance. It requires a new explanation every time, and different tables may require different versions.
“He turns his head at the last moment!”
“The demonic essence of the cultist keep him standing, gaping windpipe and all.”
“His familiar show up with a first aid kit!”
Similar to this, the case of the Colossal sized Spider poisoning the Medium slayer. I mean, I described it as he got impaled on a manible thingy, then doused in poison. Cause, you know, it’s a spider the size of godzilla.
That is, I believe, what the phrase “insult to injury” was invented. Godzilla spiders. They’re behind a lot of folk-etymology.
If I remember correctly, there was a possible attack result in the MERP system where you successfully shoved your weapon into the nape of your enemy.
This was a valid result even for a hobbit armed with a dagger facing a cave troll.
(Although it also contained my favourite critical failure, which was described as the most unfortunate strike in your life, giving you a strain in your loins, and getting the enemy stunned for a round as they start laughing at you.)
(Note, I only had the Hungarian edition so they might be different in the original book…)