A Subtle Magic
Wait a minute… Is that Lord Cragchin? I thought he was still chained up in Succubus‘s basement! And you mean to say say he’s been married to Evil Noblewoman this whole time? And shock upon surprise upon stunning revelation, Laurel tells me that the character’s name is actually “Lady Duplicity.” I suppose she’s been in enough comics at this point to earn a proper moniker. “Evil Nobelwoman” must have been her maiden name.
Any dang way, the larger point of today’s comic is that magic is never…ever…almost never…subtle. Whether it’s a matter of speaking in a strong voice for those verbal components or presenting your focus like a coked-up televangelist, folks are going to notice when you’re up to magical shenanigans. And as Bard is finding out in today’s comic, being noticed ain’t so nice when you’re pulling a Polonius impersonation.
This particular issue is on my mind at the moment because I’m looking at guest-playing as a mesmerist in an upcoming game. If you’re not familiar, the mesmerist is a bit like the beguiler over in 3.5, which is to say it’s all about deploying the tactical mind-whammies. As I read through the class guides and trawl through the years-old forum posts on the subject, the limitations of the strategy are becoming more and more worrying. You see, when you’re trying to be a spell-sneak, the little details matter a lot. In social situations, can you cast without tipping off your target? Are your opponents undead, vegetables, or otherwise immune to mind-affecting effects? How does your GM run illusions? Do they believe that the Charmed condition is a pseudo-dominate or pseudo-useless? These are important things to know before you set out dazzle the senses and beguile the mind.
And so, in preparation for a heretofore unexplored party role, what do you say we talk about subtle magic in today’s comments? When your bag of tricks is mostly filled with enchantments and mind-whammies, how do you deploy them intelligently? Is it all about buffing your save DCs into the stratosphere? Do you want a backup strategy when your mind-affecting schtick proves ineffective? And if you do want to cast mind-control on His Royal Majesty, how can you possible pull it off without getting caught? Give me all your best sneaky magic strats and clever hypnosis techniques down in the comments!
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One issue with being subtle about spell casting is when the DM suddenly says that casting spells is basically a fucking fireworks show. Cast charm person in a bar? Everyone and their grandmothers within a 10 block radius will notice what you did. Try to prebuff a persuasion check with guidance? Might as well roll initiative because even if that guard doesn’t know what spell you Castle still knows you cast a spell and that’s basically murder or something. The worse part is when you cast an illusion spell and the enemy just so happens to have been concentrating on detect magic and notices auras of illusion near your trap.
Now all those instances did come from a singular shit DM, but I’m certain that others have experienced something similar themselves. And it’s for these reasons why for the most part, I never rely on spells in social situations, at least not in the middle of the conversation itself.
Another thing: I’ve personally made it a point that all my spells have verbal components that DO NOT actually mention the name of the spell. I dont just cast Fireball, I shout “Things are heating up” as everything takes 8d6 Fire damage. I don’t cast Eldrtich Blast, I fall upon my Patron “Sabaton” to unleash a flurry of magical force ghost punches in order to baffle the enemy. It is in these ways I can employ at least some subtly to my spells without Metamagic, though it still doesn’t solve the whole “btw using magic turns you into a beacon” issue.
Thing is, especially in pathfinder. You do have to say the spell’s name loudly and clearly.
And even with silent and still spell with eschew materials. You can still be spellcrafted by someone counterspelling, and they can still with no penalty, figure out what spell you’re casting, meaning there is outright a visual event occurring originating from you, that they are using to figure out what spell is being done. Between Obfuscated spellcasting and Cunning Caster, it’s clear that just removing all components from a spell doesn’t mean people can’t figure out what you’re trying to do, but it’s still possible to mess with what remains as well.
So if a Guard suddenly asks me something and I Silent+Still spell something while staring at him, and he just sees me suddenly glow. That guard is probably gonna go form “just doing a check” to “Okay this person’s up to no good”
Of course though, these are things that need to be made clear before hand. If the DM simply assumes this is known info or people had previous DM’s who didn’t make note of this, then you end up with angry players thinking you’re pulling it out your ass.
As for illusion spells, any magical enemy with detect magic with an int of more then 10 is gonna think “maybe I should detect magic if I suspect an ambush.”
And as we discovered down in the “subtle spell” example from 5e, this difference is something to be aware of if you’re moving between editions. It’s also something to consider on a table-by-table basis, as GM opinions on the subject are prone to vary.
I have always interpreted it as saying magical words rather than just the actual name of the spell.
It wouldn’t make sense to me that people would need to make a spellcraft check to know that the cultist shouting “Sleep” is indeed casting Sleep.
That makes more sense if they are shouting “Ashataka Nyktos Nomurai” or whatever.
I must admit that the pathfinder FAQ about the glowing magical effects they put in the art actually happening universally in game as well, did surprise me when I first read it, but like you mention it explains a lot about how the game works (those feats, why you can identify a still/silent spell or any spell-like ability with spellcraft and so).
“Magical words” What language is that? Implied Draconic, but not real Draconic cause you don’t have to know Draconic to cast or identify spells with the Spellcraft skill. All the stuff they grandfathered is a big knot of “don’t pull here.” I hate it.
I prefer systems like Dresden where the words are just a focusing tool. They are in whatever language you learned to do them in, cause it’s more important that you associate “Feugo” with throwing fire than that “Feugo” means fire.
Magical words are not in any normal language obviously. They might be in somekind of language of magic or true name system depending on setting but that really isn’t necessary.
Just like how stage magicians/medieval talisman makers aren’t speaking a foreign language when they say Abracadabra or Hocus Pocus or Alakazam.
Don’t you need a Spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast? I doubt you’d need special arcane training to identify a charm person spell if the caster literally just says “Charm person” at you.
I’ve had so many arguments online with people who legitimately think that’s how spellcasting works RAW in 5e, but 5e clearly left that open to interpretation. It even says specifically in the PHB, under the “Targets” heading on Pg 204, that unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not even realize that it has been targeted by a spell.
Verbal components note a specific resonance and pitch, but NOT a universally unique set of sounds, nor a specific volume.(and they certainly don’t specify a NOTICEABLE volume) Somatic components can not only be cast with one hand, but can even be cast with the same hand that is holding any material components involved in the casting. So there’s a limit to how complex they can be.
If a creature can not even realize that a spell was cast ON IT, then it stands to reason that the specific casting of those spells CAN likewise be hidden from notice. Of course for spells that have a noticeable effect, such as damage or a description that states an observable effect, such as fireball’s bead that is sent to the targeted location before the fireball erupts, it stands to reason that this will break cover/stealth the same way as firing an arrow or other projectile.
I personally rule that things like sleight of hand, stealth, performance, maybe even arcana/religion/nature checks (depending on class) can be used to make the casting itself less noticeable, or at the very least less recognizable AS spellcasting. Otherwise 90% of the illusion and enchantment schools become functionally unusable.
I still get people complaining that steps on the toes of Sorcerer’s Subtle Spellcasting, but that’s the dumbest argument of all. In 5e, subtle spellcasting removes the components ENTIRELY and is impossible to notice, while skill checks are a complete gamble, and can’t even be attempted if your hands/lips can’t move.
Shadowrun has a lot of questionable rules, but I’m glad that it quantified just how obvious magic is. (Basically, the Force of your spell/spirit affects the difficulty of noticing. Summon a powerful spirit or cast a really big fireball and everyone will see magical energy swirling around you; do something smaller and you might get away with doing it in plain sight.)
Systems which leave this vague theoretically give more freedom to individual groups to customize the game to suit their needs, but in practice just means nobody knows what the GM’s going to make up until it happens.
I will never go back to vancian casting from vanilla Pathfinder now that Spheres of Power is a thing.
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions
So many options for so many play styles.
Want a techno wizard who uses a Casting Aid Bracelet (CAB) to cast spells via a holographic display that takes a bit longer to activate?
Extended Casting (clumsy interface), Focus Casting (CAB), Magical Signs (holo display menu), Somatic Casting (flicking through to find the spell)
Take the Easy Focus boon to balance out the extended casting, since the CAB does it for you…
Want a druggie caster with a recipe for magic?
Adictive Casting (for that fix), Material Casting (Only the first hit was free), Prepared Casting (got to make a new batch every day), Focus casting (alchemy lab), Skilled Casting (Craft Alchemy)
Take the Overcharge boon for those times a lower dose won’t cut it.
Even subtle variants can be differently flavored…
Have a summoner who brings their paintings to life?
Material Casting (special art supplies), Focus Casting (paint brush), Rigorous Concentration (painting is hard enough without combat), Skilled Casting (Profession Painter)
And best of all, it’s clear what your casting does and takes to perform it.
That’s why the subtle spell metamagic for the sorcerer in 5th edition is so valuable. No need to speak or wave your hand around to cast a spell, which is great for casting things like ‘suggestion’ or ‘charm person’. It’s also useful to avoid counterspell as you give no warning you are about to cast a spell.
I found the Sage Advice that confirms the counter spelling function. Good stuff to know for people switching between editions. Like the comment above pointed out, you are explicitly allowed to counterspell a still / silent spell in Pathfinder 1e. The bigger is when those system expectations are buried behind FAQs.
I can solve your mesmerist concerns right now. For stuff that’s immune to mind affecting, take psychic inception as a bold stare. To hide your spellcasting, take the cunning caster feat. Your bluff will already be ridiculous as a mesmerist.
Job done.
I’ve heard that psychic inception is practically mandatory. Good to know about cunning caster though. I’d only heard of the other feat from ultimate intrigue
Mesmerist is actually my favorite class! Trading in the cumbersome vocal and somatic components for thought and emotion components makes it way easier to cast without making a ruckus, just try and be out of any sightlines and you’re good. Of course, Conceal Spell or Cunning Caster both help if you’re planning on casting in people’s faces. For things like Detect Thoughts, you can cast it around a corner and then come back and read all the minds you like without any obvious effects. Finally, for everything else, there’s Invisibility.
For mind-affecting immune enemies, Mesmerists can just stare at them with Psychic Inception, which is always my first Bold Stare. Otherwise, you get a ton of other spells on your list that aren’t mind affecting, including Possession, which for some reason isn’t enchantment but NECROMANY, and therefore works on everything. Finally, you can always just rely on your tricks and painful stare to get by. I especially like the Swap Trick feat for letting you essentially apply Mirror Image on your party before every combat for free.
I’ve never done a 1/6 caster without a martial component. It’s going to be interesting trying to get by as a primary caster without that crutch.
For my illusionist, I worked with the GM to establish their Casting Tradition; aka the system has a bunch of bonuses and drawbacks to customize how each caster casts. I avoided all the “LOOK AT ME” effects and dropped verbal. I still have to make gestures, but as my plan was to be invisible all the time I didn’t consider that an issue.
On the downside, since it is Fey magic, I have issues casting on anything iron/steel/cold iron and I can’t do my casting if I’m affected by emotional nonsense.
+1. Spheres of Power is great for establishing the ins and outs of your own personal magic, via casting traditions.
I remain baffled by this spheres casting business. I don’t know if it’s just really popular among my Handbook peeps or if I’m straight up missing out on something everyone else discovered years ago.
It’s like being an old person, wondering what it is those dang teenagers are yapping about these days.
I’ve heard about it a few times (outside the comment section) and it sounds neat, but I’ve never actually looked into it particularly deeply and all of my group’s Pathfinder games are on hold for 2020 reasons.
My first party had an enchantment-focused Sorcerer. Kitsune, Fey Bloodline, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, CHA maximized at the expense of physically resembling an easily-snapped twig. The player group universally agreed that as nice of a person as Xiulan was, she was also the scariest member of the party, hands down. (“I wouldn’t Dominate my friends! That’s why you should stay my friends.”) Strangely enough, she rarely ended up using the common mind-screw spells like Charm Person. Her Hideous Laughter, Sleep/Deep Slumber and Confusion spells (all enchantments) made her good at disabling foes in combat, and the “everything is ghouls now” part of the campaign gave her a useful backup skill – holeymancy. Indeed, Create Pit and its upgrades became one of her signature spells, and was the reason why many of our battlefields ended up looking like prairie dog burrows. The campaign ended before Dominate Person came online for her, unfortunately, but she was still a great contributor to the team without overshadowing anyone else.
Back in my wizarding days, Confusion was always my go-to for bid-dumb-monster fights. There’s no telling how many hill giants wound up playing rock em sock em robots in that campaign….
Ooh, I love Hideous Laughter! It’s my go-to spell for when a wizard or bard needs to get someone out of the fight for a bit. I actually killed a black dragon with it once – it was flying over lava, so when it failed its save, it fell in.
Oddly, my first thought was those fantasy battlefields which look more like WW1 battlefields, regardless of whether or not the magic being thrown around justifies such devastation.
That build is really good at going “Eat this Compulsion cause the DC is 56.” I’ve been plotting to spring it on a Gm coupled with a questionable alignment and lots of “I’m just reforming the ogre.” arguments that I don’t believe in.
We’ve had a weird example of this in a recent fight with a Wizard boss. She had time to buff, meaning they were sporting mirror images, shield, stone skin, flight and displacement.
The thing is, whilst most of the effects were rather obvious (shield being a bubble-shield, displacement and mirror images being copies or illusions to make the wizard harder to hit, and flight being obvious once she took to the air), stone skin inexplicably wasn’t, as the spell doesn’t actually mention your skin becomes stone-like. So we ended up surprised that it was absorbing damage from our non-adamantine shots.
Depending on DM interpretation of spell subtlety, any spell that doesn’t have obvious visible effects is effectively an invisible buff that only a spellcraft or detect magic or arcane sight can detect, OR you’re pretty much a walking lightshow of some sort sporting a bubble force field, ghost-like mage armor, cat-shaped light effects from your dexterity enhancement bonus…
Permanent arcane sight is a permanent acid trip.
“I saw it with my WIZARD EYES!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJKUGKwQNQo
Aura Sight and anyone with permanent alignment detection with no action similarly just see everyone as a lightshow.
I met one of the animators on Adventure Time once. Dude said there “may have” been a few bestiaries lying around the studio.
Pretty sure they did something similar with My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (helps that they had ties to Hasbro as well).
I’ve mentioned this story before, but I used DM ruling and ‘subtle magic’ to effectively let all of my Mesmerist abilities (including spellcasting, due to how their components aren’t motions or audible) to play a person in cat-shape disguise, pretending to be a familiar for a ‘witch’ that pretended to do the actual casting.
As far as I know, though, Pathfinder explicity mentioned in FAQs or elsewhere that magic being cast is obvious unless you invest in feats to make it not (e.g. Bards can hide their magic with a performance). This includes psychic spells, unfortuantely.
My schtick is going to be a bleachling gnome personal therapist. Dude’s got an android-like flat affect (think Marvin from Hitchhiker’s).
“I just want you to find your bliss.”
He could be a punchclock Cupid with the right spells!
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/matchmaker/
Inveigle Person, Aura of the Unremarkable are spells that might fit them as well.
Just found out about the two-world magic trait that gives you a cantrip from another list. Acid splash seems like a pretty good way to enable a state and still contribute meaningful damage.
You’d think Lord Cragchin, and other oblivious-of-their-partner-cheating-on-them victims would find it odd their partner likes to sleep/lay naked in very unruly beds when they’re away.
Self-absorbed people don’t notice others’ foibles.
Going from the Pathfinder official comics, most magic seems to be, on the vocal side at least, the person in question uttering or yelling gibberish-magic-incantation-words rather than actual spell names.
It may be gibberish, but it’s gibberish in a “strong clear voice.” 😛
That’s what the D&D (and D&Derivative Games) books generally say or imply…but it’s easier, clearer, and usually funnier to just have characters say the spell names.
In Vampire the basic power of Dominate, Command can be hide in a sentence. Instead of saying to a executive to agree, the kindred may say: “You may be against it, and it’s your right. But if you… AGREE with it-“. And then the victim will just agree in the spot. There needs to be an inflection and emphasis on the word, there must be eye contact too. But it can be hide in plain sight 🙂
You may have a bag of tricks, but the real trick you need is how to use them 🙂
Right on. I feel like that interaction is exactly what people want when they first acquire “charm person” on the D&D side. When you find out that’s not how it works, it can be frustrating to realign expectations.
In D&D there are so many broken things that don’t work as should or as one would expect, it’s a given 🙁
That one of my problem with that game. You don’t play as you want you play as the rules want. And the rules are so wrong in so many things 🙁
Hope you enjoy the game 🙂
If you are gonna play a mentalist maybe you should check how some of them work. Like in “Lie to me” when the protagonist use facial features to be living lie detector. Or the mentalist on “Now you see me”, he is more magician like and show how he can use mentalism to manipulate people 🙂
In real life mentalists make things appear as magic. In a magical setting the trick for mentalists is to make things appear normal 😛
Though by default it is super obvious to the target of dominate that they where under a compulsion of some-kind and the effect wear off once the command has been completed. (at least until you get the upgraded power that removes that limitation).
So you’d best make sure with a bit of research (or just hope) that the CEO would be too hesitant to lose face or too worried about what this meant for their mental health, to make a scene about it or to retract their agreement immediately afterwards.
Which edition are you talking? In V20 Command the basic power (*) don’t have that restriction. At least not by default:
“An alert bystander — or even the victim — may notice the emphasis. Still, unless she’s conversant with supernatural powers, the individual is likely to attribute the utterance and the subsequent action to bizarre coincidence.” V20 Core rulebook, page 152
As i read the rules, my personal interpretation, there should not be more alert of something strange or supernatural than when a person buys a thing and later wants to get a refund. “What i was thinking?!” is the reaction i expect from the victim. Not a “I was mind dominated to sign that sell!!!”. Specially because that argument has been used too much by executives to cover their errors 😛
Huh, I could have sworn that was there in V20.
My memory claims it was the case in revised, but clearly it is unreliable here.
I know it’s part of V5 what with the higher level power Rationalize that removes that limitation being from there.
I do think that “that was worrisome, perhaps I’m a bit i’ll” kind of compulsion is more likely interpretation than outright mind-control, for people that aren’t aware that you can do that.
Then again people that do know you can mind-control might easily blame the mind-control even if you didn’t actually use it that time.
I’m getting impressions that HBOH Bard is somewhat related to certain other bard.
Insofar as this is a comic about tropes, he’s somewhat related to every other bard.
Most bards end up related to most adventurers, more like. You don’t get those half-templates without a lineage of someone being a horny embarrassment.
There’s always Exalted, where my Twilight composed and recited a haiku as part of spellcasting… fortunately this was a PbP game, where I wasn’t having to think on the spot…
“Light of a green sun.
Total Annihilation.
It does what it says”.
Dodge charms! Or Death of
Obsidian Butterflies
will ruin your day.
A handy thing about flowery Exalted spell names… many are about the right length to fit that seven-syllable second line of a haiku, give or take. “Demon of the First Circle”, “The Light of Solar Cleansing”, “Emerald Countermagic”, etc.
With regards to mesmerists and subtlety, psychic magic doesn’t have verbal or somatic components; it has emotion and thought components (which respectively make it impossible to psychic stuff when you’re under a non-harmless emotion-ey effect and increase concentration DCs if you don’t take a move action to center yourself).
But as with the Occult Adventures classes in general, I found my mesmerist to be neat, but kind of clunky and not as effective as a non-Occult class. Which is a shame, because the Occult Adventure classes are really cool.
For subtle spellcasting in general, the best defense is to cast your spells before anyone’s around to notice. This obviously requires planning ahead, which I realize isn’t every group’s forte. The second-best defense is to cast your spells while everyone’s distracted by something even more obnoxious, which I suspect planning-impaired parties should be able to handle with ease.
This is more or less my line of thinking. You don’t mind-whammy His Lordship in the throne room. You hide in the closet and wait until he’s sleeping or whatever.
Deaf Oracle with Secrets Signs Feat.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Oracle/oracle-curses/#Deaf
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/secret-signs-local/
Possibly throw Eschew materials in there to top it off.
Always use Sign Language to communicate.
And suddenly you’re at a party, talking like normal, and suddenly stuff happens. No idea why, but since Charisma is your casting stat, it was probably that guy over there that insulted you a few days ago.
Neat option. Seems like a fun one to build around.
Eeeeee!
This I have posted about before with my Empathic Duelist Eliciter, Sam.
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/empathic-duelist
It’s not just about what you cast, but who you target.
In Sam’s case, when faced with a goblin chief with lizard mount, his shaman and said shaman’s panther, and a hand full of guards, the Charm talent states nothing out of their nature…
So he posed the overly dramatic question (waving hands about to conceal his spell) which was mostly “targeted” at the shaman, that any who joined us would be the new chief!
We had a Shaman and a panther ally for the fight.
Later I tried to mind brain a bigger boss and he out shouted me some how to counter me.
So I looked at his hired merc and said “Why are you helping this mad man!?” He did not pass his save…
Last we saw him, he was chasing the near dead boss down a river.
We figure he died when he caught up to the boss…
So knowing your target and their motives can help too.
With the goblin example, how did you hide the spell effects? Did your GM just allow a bluff check or some such?
Sorry, I miss-clicked below, and didn’t reply to the chain.
I had conceal spell and made a good roll.
I just traded it out for Cunning Caster though, which is the spheres equivalent and much less complicated.
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc14
I have Subtlety from the Mind Sphere also. So if they succeed the save DC they have to save again to notice I was casting on them.