Frickin Laser Beams
So there you are, locked in combat with a non-copyrighted Ocular Tyrant, when your buddy the catfolk starts with this malarkey. You know how deadly Ocular Tyrants can be. You know that it’s going to take the full resources of the team to get through this thing in once piece. But Derp the Cat is busy having a private little RP moment, and you’re staring down the barrel of perma-death disintegration. What do you do?
This issue remains unresolved for me. On the one hand, I like the idea that RP doesn’t stop when combat starts. You can still characterize your guy through the actions he takes in the heat of battle, and those can be some of the most memorable. Saving the falling baby rather than punching the dragon, fighting defensively when faced with phobia-inducing opponents, or relying upon your character’s favored weapon rather than a more effective combat strategy can all be interesting character choices. But getting your buddies killed so that you can wallow in what-my-character-would-do is a tough decision to make.
What do you guys think? Do you prefer to keep combat and characterization in two separate little worlds, or do you try to combine the two? And if you do combine them, how far do you take it? When is it your responsibility to be a tactically smart team player, and when do you have the leeway to play with frickin laser beams, so to speak? Let’s hear it in the comments!
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Oh man… Now this is the nightmare I endure when trying to fit a stat block to a character… It’s been quite an ordeal trying to figure out which classes best fit the original designs of my characters. When every last one of my characters is designed to be skilled with both magic and some manner of martial or marksman prowess, in addition to some third, non combat skill set, sacrifices unfortunately have to be made….
One of my characters, my namesake, I’ve given the title Terran Artificer. In his world, he is unmatched in his skill with the earth element. Using it, and his great understanding of the fundamentals of magic, he creates wondrous creations with ease: from simple, everyday items, to a particularly unique variety of constructs, and even some of the most intricate creations you would have laid eyes on: Autonomous crafting.
What I’m getting at, is that being multitalented just isn’t possible without making some sort of huge sacrifice that just ends up weakening the character in the end… To be a grand artificer, you’d have to specialize in that, and nothing else. Martials are generally bad at magic, if they have any at all.
In the end, pathfinder is just too limited to satisfy that who’s ego is far greater than that of a god’s. That is my curse… The inability to create my grand designs. I guess that’s where NPC’s come in, but who wants to be an NPC? But at the same time, I don’t want to be limited by arbitrary things like wealth by level and the inability to create my own spells.
…I am way too ambitious.
Try out 5e! It’s quite possible to make that character, for example. I’d use a Wizard, or maybe a Stone Sorcerer. Use Mold Earth for simple stuff, Stone Shape for more complex objects, Fabricate for even bigger and more complex objects, Animate Objects for temporary golems, Wall of Stone for buildings and bridges. Flavor Mage Armor is being made of stone. Take two kinds of crafting tools (stonecarving and smithing tools?) from your background.
I suppose the closest I can get to being exactly that is to be an earth kineticist, and hope my DM lets me use the Kineticists of Porphyra 3pp content… However, with what I can tell, even that does not have options to give me full control over, metal or magma, if I have those as my expanded elements… Nor does it have craft constructs.
It’s also ridiculous how an earth kineticist doesn’t get access to wall of stone, only stone shape…
I think this is what Spheres of Power is for:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr?Spheres-of-Power
Have you though about gestault? It makes it so much easier to build characters like that without the sacrifices being as crippling. In 3.5 I loved using it and Savage Species to make monstrous characters that didn’t completely suck.
Not many people tend to run gestalt, and the ones who do generally only do it for the sake of throwing out things to kill, and nothing more. Just a small, light, not very immersive power trip.
I’ve had mixed results with the “RP in combat” moments. At lower levels, they can be kind of funny, or maybe kind of annoying. Maybe they add some flavor. Maybe they make that fight take way too long and the player is politely but firmly encouraged to tone it down.
But at mid and high levels? That crap has all the appeal of having your colon cored out by the broad side of an ogre’s club. And it’s likely to hurt just as much. You are a high. Level. Adventurer. You’re fighting enemies that throw around advanced magic, slice up allies like an up-turned lawnmower, and make you roll saves versus having your insides swap places with your outsides. If you’re the kind of person to arbitrarily stop doing your job because of some quirk that stopped being endearing four or five levels ago, then the party is well within their right to give you the boot.
“But it’s what my character would do!” Yeah, Derpenstien, and I bet if your local blacksmith hammered out a sword that had all the effectiveness of a fart in the wind, you’d drop his ass like a cursed hot potato. So when the party rules that you either step UP or step OUT, don’t be upset: After all, “it’s what their characters would do.”
…ahem. I may have had a bad experience or two.
As a gossipy bitch, Ima need some specific examples. :3
Well most of the stories I know about come from the elegan/tg/entlemen, if you know what I mean. I’ve had a few of my own that were…. strong?
So I’m playing this 3-parter in PFS. In the first part, we have a player who plays a Brawler. He decided to go 7/7/7 with his mental stats because, hey who needs those right? Naturally, he spends half the adventure asleep, feared, and demoralized.
Part 2, he plays some kind of melee fighty thing. In this one, we’re on a river boat on our way to get to a place. On the journey, we’re set upon by goblinoids shooting at us from the shore. He stands at the edge of the deck, his 2 handed melee weapon in hand, doing nothing with a side of useless. I ask if he has a ranged weapon. He ain’t about that life. My character, who is driving the ship, risks precious actions just to drop her loaded crossbow and kick it over to him. And with a loaded ranged weapon at his feet, he valiantly proceeds to…. continue to stand there, for multiple rounds, taking arrows to the face BECAUSE HE REALLY LIKES USING SWORDS.
Part 3. We’re defending a besieged village from mounted archers who are making passes and harassing us with fire while we fight off brutes that charge us. We’re holding out pretty well thanks to the spiked barricades we built at the major entrances. So one we clear them out, we wait patiently behind cover until the enemy general closes in. And you know what he wants to do? Hop the wall and run at the enemy, of course.
We actually have to ARGUE with the guy both in and out of character to convince him not to try and chase down MOUNTED. FREAKING. ARCHERS. On foot. In a relatively open field.
I got another story, but I’m overdue for sleep right now. Spoiler: it involves We Be Goblins.
“I’m far to honorable to fight with a bow. That’s a coward’s weapon!”
Footage of his character: http://p.fod4.com/p/media/9015cde16b/mdw2dqnDShdfJhitsZkQ_Arrows-American-Gods-1.gif
First of all, i’m so doing this if my cat-turned-halfling ever fights a Beholder. =)
Second, I think a little RP is appropriate in any combat. It’s just, please don’t build a character with a crippling combat weakness in a game that is typically 1/3rd combat or more. If you’re afraid of water and won’t cross, that’s one thing. If you’re afraid of water and it makes you shriek and curl up in a catatonic ball, maybe don’t. Not at my table, anyway.
I dunno. A paralyzing fear of water tends to be a self-correcting problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSynJyq2RRo&t=15m0s
This had better be a link to The Gamers.
…. It was, good. =)
It is a bit of a predicament. You want to encourage RP, but if that RP in combat leads to everyone else dying…yeah.
Personally I like the way systems like Mutants and Masterminds have it set up so that if your RP does cause complications in play, you get a nice bonus to cash in later. The difference though is that M&M is a far less lethal system designed for those sort of moments. Still, I think the principle is the same, but I don’t think a point of Inspiration is a strong enough reward when it could directly lead to the party dying. Perhaps give them a free Diviner’s Portant? If their rp causes a mahor combat setback, let them roll a d20 and record the result, and they are allowed to replace any single d20 roll they want with that? Or perhaps the better option is to give everyone a small bonus if one guy’s rp does that. They might be slightly less sour if the RPer screwing around gives them all a point of Inspiration.
Any opinions on those systems where GMs can “invoke” a hindrance? In this scenario, Magus’s GM just told her that, “I turn in one of my screw-with-the-party tokens to activate your Curiosity Killed hindrance. Those lasers are very shiny….”
If the player voluntarily chose the hindrance, is ok with it, and gets a boon from it coming into play, I’m fine with it. A big part of the GM’s job is to throw complications at the party to overcome, and invoking a hindrance that a player choose definitely qualifies. Actually, that may be preferable, as a gpod GM would have factored that into the encounter difficulty beforehand. Just as a good DM won’t throw a Purple Worm at a 4th level party without warning, they shouldn’t invoke a complication when it would completely screw over the party.
I’m surprised how many people forget that you can tell your teammates to be more combat-efficient in character. Talking is a free action.
“I don’t care about your symbolic revenge with the dagger that killed your brother! You either pull out those magic kukris or the next Finger of Death is headed in your direction!”
It’s a matter of expectation, you know? People have been trained by other forms of media to come to these games with some very specific expectations. They WILL get to kill the six-fingered man with that wondrous sword their father forged. Putting aside that kind of amazing moment for the sake of more bonuses is the kind of thing that makes new players say, “This game is dumb.” It also happens to be smart play.
Oh man, and I really liked this webcomic. Well, good luck and I hope the kill-squad WotC will send after you for using a creature with the “Copyrighted” tag is going to be CR apropriate ( let’s face it, it won’t be. They may not be GW but they’re getting there ).
lol. This actually isn’t our first Ocular Tyrant. Remember the “The Floor is Lava!” comic?
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/the-floor-is-lava
Besides, this thing couldn’t possibly be a hypothetically copyrighted monster. It’s emitting a laser beam from its main eye. No antimagic cones in sight. Totally different monster.
And so the brave warrior laughed, mistaking a little luck for the everlasting favor of the Gods, thinking himself more cunning than the Beast itself. Was it Pride that doomed him? Yes, it is always Pride in the end.
One way I have found to help handle it is to make sure that the BBEG and its minions, and in most combats, consistently RP. This can both increase/decrease a challenge in some cases. I also try to find ways for the party to learn, in an RP way, what they might be facing. For example, they were exploring dwarven ruins that were totally not the Lost City from Thief: The Dark Project when they started coming across reliefs talking about fighting a Pyroclastic Dragon. Eventually one broke free in a cinematic…totally not the opening to WoW “Cataclysm” and they had to fight it. Now it would have been better combat tactics for the dragon to land…full attack 1 character for upteenabsurdity damage…then go on to the next one…but I had it flying around, burning the city from time to time, and turning on the party after they hurt it a bit…then it would land for a round or two (with a cinematic indicator usually) that it was getting ready to do a breath attack, the part could take cover, then it would breathe and the fight kept going. It made for a very exciting/tactical fight that was FAR more memorable than just back-and-forth dice rolling with the only excitement being when some character or the BBEG got down to its last HPs.
I hear a lot of complaints about “cinematics” in video games, but it sounds like it was a useful metaphor for you. Would you mind typing out what you would say to your players during one of these cinematic moments? I’d be curious to hear what that sounds like in practice.
So this was my inspiration for the fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq4Y7ztznKc
The party had just come back to the surface, and was near a group of buildings. They knew an attack was imminent, they just weren’t sure when or exactly where.
So it might be something along the lines:
“The ground rumbles and begins to shake. Walls begin to crack and dust rain down. Suddenly a geyser of earth erupts into the air from the city center accompanied by a wave of heat. The blast reverberates across the city as you see a massive clawed foot, bathed in what looks like magma and seething with heat, plant itself as a massive dragon, at least fifty feet long, climbs from the crater of collapsing crust. It slams its tail into the ground and you can see a shockwave spreading out, knocking over the few guards standing their ground as citizens flee in a panic. Rearing back onto its rear legs it breathes in deeply, stretching its wings wide. From the carvings you know this must be what the dwarves feared, Xaxas, the Bringer of Destruction. A local priest bravely seems to be trying to cast a spell at the monstrosity but the spell fizzles against the seething skin. After a moment the dragon leans forward and a mighty roar bellows forth from it. Black soot and ash explodes from its mouth, the shockwave alone tearing apart the priest before he is completely engulfed in flames. Buildings caught in the pyroclastic flow shatter and collapse before bursting into a rapidly spreading firestorm. A few brave souls at the edges of the blast are blown along the ground, burning hideously as their bodies quake from reverberations. As the creature takes to flight the cloud of death and destruction lingers for a time before dissipating as it rises to join the columns of smoke of the now burning city”
It may seem like mostly just exposition, but it warns the party that the thing has some level of spell resistance, its tail slam attack can knock people prone out some distance (Shockwave feat), its breath attack clings (Clinging breath), lingers in the area (lingering breath), was incredibly powerful (maximize breath).
Now, if I was min-maxing damage. The thing would make sure it was close enough to a player, and lay in a full attack (After it got charged or something).
Before power attack it could do 67.5 average damage a turn. Crank up power attack (and with an attack bonus of +34…for example -9 from the attack would increase damage by 38 to 105/rnd) and you can probably destroy a Level 16 player a turn. A Barbarian has a chance of surviving, but may well be struggling to hit the AC32, and isn’t going to chew through its hit points fast enough. A caster is going to explode into a fine mist. But that isn’t much fun for the players.
So having the BBEG fight cinematically, slamming the ground to knock players over, so they can’t easily do full round actions, telegraphing when it’s going to do a full-round max breath next turn so they can spend a turn getting into cover, etc., keeps them from just getting obliterated.
At the same time, the single BBEG is tough enough (with SR 25, 300hp, AC32) that being knocked down and the like is going to reduce the damage output of the party so they aren’t going to 1-shot the beasty. (They won’t be able to do a lot of full-round actions, or things requiring concentration.) If they get breathed on they are going to have to evacuate the area quickly, but using LOS blocking terrain (even if it then is destroyed) it gives them safe spots to get into rather than just standing and shooting.
It makes for a very “cinematic” type fight, and a lot less of just standing still rolling dice until either the party dies, or the BBEG dies.
Purposeful exposition is a neat idea. Make the description cool AND useful. The trick is doing it often enough so that the PCs know to listen rather than discount all that good game design work as fluff.
I would argue it’s a good habit to get into. Again, reaching back to the Thief Series of games, a lot of the loot you have to steal are things like candle sticks, small signet rings, etc. It also gives a more living world, and can be an easy way to add adventure hooks if you want to. (The seemingly insignificant signet ring this session, when they go to sell it, either just has some interesting fluff with it, or a merchant could refuse to buy it for one reason or another starting an adventure, or anything along those lines.)
For example:
“As you all step into the dining room, moon light filters into the room, a light breeze blowing at long-frayed curtains makes dust motes dance in the beams. The long table in the center is covered in a thin layer of dust and dirt, two candelabras are set along the table, their candles still intact. As light from your torches falls upon them you can see the gleam of silver beneath the years of weathering.”
Let’s the party know the candelabras may still be valuable. In a kitchen, maybe a cabinet is slightly ajar and as the party searches they can find a small vial of an old, rare, spice. (I had one party that wouldn’t give that up for 1000g, that’s another story though.) Looking around one’s own house can perhaps be inspiration for “environmental loot.” Maybe instead of silver and gold there is an old valuable painting hanging on a wall, rare books in the library. Hide a spell-tome or two from time to time and that scholarly wizard is not only rewarded for RPing their characters love of books, but encourages them, and the party, to try to find more.
The more you practice using environmental hazards to increase/decrease the difficulty of things (have the party stalked at night, in a forest, that’s filled with light mist…or a heavy fog. Or maybe they meet their contact, and the light of the contact’s lantern relives them) the more they will pay attention to the details and interact with the environment. It shouldn’t always be to their advantage, or disadvantage, and sometimes a light drizzle is just that.
It can also give interesting emotional rewards/changes to the world in general. So they go to investigate the creepy tower, and even during the day, for weeks it’s also been grey, drizzlely, ya know…England. But after they defeat the BBEG the sun starts to come out, a robin is chirping. In later adventures, even if they aren’t near the place, maybe they can hear background conversation about how the area now has trade picking up since it doesn’t look super creepy.
I try hard to make my worlds living breathing things, that keep going on, affected by the player’s decisions/actions, but not completely dependent on them.
“The more you practice using environmental hazards…”
Exposition and description matter (a lot!), but sometimes players can be obtuse. I like the idea of mixing in mechanical indicators with my exposition, even in non-mechanical situations. Suppose you end your description of a frozen environment to call for Acrobatics checks to avoid falling down on the icy surface, even though it’s a non-threatening situation. This can be good foreshadowing for the environmental challenge in the imminent glacier yeti fight.
That is almost precisely the kind of thing I did with a glacier fight. The glacier crevasse was starting to melt, and pieces were starting to fall into the depths below the party had to explore. Eventually they had a fight, moving along the paths beside a 200ft+ drop, there were some piles and such…because those were protection when they started taking arrows from some native tribes. All the while, huge spikes of ice were falling and could impale them so they had to move into some of the caves which meant getting out into the open and to keep moving. Made for an exciting fight…actually was a founding event for a weapon of legacy. (But that’s another story!)
One important caveat you also hit on, is the idea of making checks and whatnot in non-threatening environments. If every time they get exposition it’s because there is a mechanical element it can slow them down as they look over every detail of every room and can go down rabbit holes. Finding the balance so that not every blowing curtain is a cloaker, but the valuable silverwear is valuable.
As Freud says…sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!
Didn’t know I was signing up for Advanced GMing Techniques 201 when I started this comic. 😀
I am of the opinion that, if the players and DM are communicating LIKE THEY SHOULD (looking at you, fighter) then the DM should be aware that Steve likes to RP sub-optimal combat if it fits his character. The DM can then plan combats on this, instead of prepping for five, he only plans for four pcs and a hireling, because Steve’s half-ass-imar cleric needs to deal with some crap.
I think it’s fine, if it’s made known BEFORE the behol-*ahem* EYE TYRANT fight. 🙂
I just want you to know that ‘half-ass-imar’ is the best thing I’ve ever heard.
It was on a whim 😉
Well then. Now I want to roll up a lazy aasimar. Dude’s probably a minion-mancer. Maybe he specializes in unseen servant….
So Inquisitor uses a greataxe, or a halberd? Either way it’s a fetching silhouette. Excellent hat.
It’s really up to the table consensus as to what separates good RP from bad husbandry of your action economy. Generally speaking, you can get away with A) whatever doesn’t feasibly turn a win into a loss, or B) something that makes at least half the table smile or laugh or cheer. DMs are more inclined to give generous circumstance bonuses in the latter case, a la Rule of Cool.
Inquisitor is all about that d12 damage die. Homegirl brings the pain!
Writing this comic, I was thinking back to some long-ago comment about a dude whose wife / GF / whatever would role a die to decide on each of her actions. She justified this by saying that she was a neutral character, so it was evens/odds whether she would buff an ally or herself. Apparently Husband’s character was a hit away from perma-death, and Wife’s dice told her to buff herself rather than heal him.
Dude said he was abashed at his “overreaction,” but insofar as the story didn’t end in divorce, I think he was well within his rights to be upset. Maybe that’s a my table vs. his table sort of thing, but I’m just saying… If it were me, Laurel would have slept on the couch that night. (And by that I mean I would have slept on the couch that night.)
I have a surprising number of encounters that my players barely walk away from due to the fact that they RP heavily.
For example a single rabid wolf against 5 second level characters managed to nearly kill half the party because the party healer decided that he was trapped in his sleeping bag. The party Wizard was busy running from the wolf by climbing the 12 foot ranger. The 12 foot ranger was busy trying to negotiate with the rabid wolf. They loved the encounter. They are still holding onto that wolf.
I’ve got worse examples than that where players literally either changed sides mid-combat or just up and left. I just try and deal with it. Give an out or plain make it exciting. IF a character should die tell them it will live on in the legends and let them either make a new one (or rename the character and bring it back) or be an evil GM by allowing them to become the villain.
I guess it all comes down to how you look at the game. If the whole group thinks it’s a romp through the land of make believe and funny one-liners, then you’re golden. If half the group is there to win a tactical minis game, then you’ve got issues.
Your group sounds awesome, btw. 🙂
In our AL hanes, I usually do both.
One time, the party was fighting a Hill Giant that started to collapse the tower we were in, to kill us as a final act. My fiancé’s Druid got out no problems, but the shrunken bear we had adopted fell from her back. It was my turn, & I was oaths to break character. My Ranger had wanted the bear dead for ages, but knew it would upset her Druid. In a bout of inspiration, I pulled a classic action movie rescue of the bear. I shot the giant dead with an arrow, then used my bonus action to grab a rope & swing down, grabbing the bear as I went out the window. I described to the DM how I was twisting to land on my back, clutching the bear close to my chest. Both IC & OOC, it was a great role-playing moment that had everyone at the table captivated.
Were you rewarded for your daring with A) inspiration or B) falling damage?
Inspiration. And a grateful hug both IC & OOC by the fiancé. She then ruined it by saying, “See? I knew you loved Doctor Teddy Bear!”
I know it’s probably not intentional, but my first thought when looking at the silhouettes was “Is that a Food arrow!?”
Also in general this comic just made me crack up.
You make writer happy. Writer ride that high rest of day.
P.S.: What is a “food arrow?”
Food. Like from Zelda. On an arrow.
I mean, what else do you use to deal with monsters while your fellow party members are busy RPing instead of fighting? =P
You can still throw in some RP in a moment like this AND do your Adventurer job.
She just moans as the first laser flashes past her and complains that they never find anything “nice” that uses them, before throwing herself into the fray…
Also, the DM could most likely stop it by asking, “You’re saying that your character is so inept that they would rather chase a glowing dot on the floor than save their friends/comrades/companions from certain death, knowing it will likely kill them next?”
There is a point where you may have to step in and say “NO that is MOT what your character would do!”
I joined an evil game once upon a time, and was eager to test out my half-giant grapple build. The party managed to make nice with a pair of demons, but I challenged one to a wrestling match anyway.
“If we are to be allies, I would know your strength!” I said.
I intended it to be a friendly contest, but the GM interpreted it as “let’s do the combat.” Both demons throw down, most of the party joins the fray, and one character (an evil wizard, I believe) wanders away from “these idiots” to continue exploring solo.
It was a cluster, but I still don’t know who was in the wrong. Did I screw up by insisting on combat when the encounter was already solved? Did the GM screw up by overplaying the demons’ aggression? Did the wizard screw up by refusing to join in on “pointless brawling?” All I know is that I felt like a dick when the demons actually managed to kill one of the other PCs.
It was the first combat of my first session with that group. 🙁
I would just say that there could have been some out-of-character clairification of intent is all.
Maybe make sure that the DM knows your not challenging them to mortal combat.
If he still sicked both of them on you, then attempt to flatter them to stop it. The real FUBAR would be the rest of the party jumping in of their own accord when there was a challenge issued.
Honestly, if he committed to the fight then he can’t really complain about dying… They coulda just stood there and watched. Evil is as evil does. But mostly they weren’t paladins who HAD to intervene.
It’s been a good long while. I don’t remember the specifics, just the results. We managed to revive the dead guy though, so it wasn’t a total loss.
Wouldn’t the cat-girl have shredded the yarn elemental?
She dealt a lot of damage, sure. But Magus wouldn’t let Ranger or Inquisitor come close. Every time they tried to take their turn “playing” with the yarn elemental she hissed and swiped at them. In consequence, total party damage per round plummeted.
I see. I guess that makes sense.
Huh. Just realized — I think this is the only time I’ve ever seen Ranger say something in the comic. I guess she’s just that frustrated with Magus right now.
Fun story? That’s actually an error. The script calls for Inquisitor to say that line. I just didn’t notice when Laurel turned in the page, mostly on account of I’m so amused by Magus’s face in this one.
… that time when I successfully Suggested to a dragon that mutually ignoring each other would be the best course of action, and then on the next turn out party cleric (literally called “Smite” ) attacked it because “it’s what she would do” – thus breaking my spell.
It didn’t help that my character – a warlock – had only 2 spell slots, and he was a bad-luck magnet on par with Thief; this had been the very first time he had contributed meaningfully to a turn-order event.
My character was much too easygoing to react as I wanted to (he was a sort of cheerful team dad / wise mentor figure), but I was livid.
To quote Grog: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRLZCJRQqVqJvX58ZqGi3f5-rm3fJYHQvuwRr6YLz7NK9Bx57Zp
I like my characters. I want them to succeed and to defeat the antagonists.
If one of my group is in a pinch, I will wrack my brain to find the best way to help them without metagaming knowledge. If someone leaves my character to die because, or does not use their action in the best manner possible to pay me back in kind, I will be very cross with them and I’ll probably stop playing with them. “But that is what my character would do” is a shite excuse.
I don’t care if it’s irrational and I don’t care if I am wrong. I’m probably wrong, and if I am, I do not want to be right.