Fudge
Fighter is a cheating bastard. That said, cheating is not always a bad thing in TRPGs. As per the Starfinder Core Rulebook, “Player cheating can ruin a game, but as a GM, you may sometimes find yourself in situations where cheating might actually improve the game. We prefer to call this “fudging.'” In other words, there’s a reason that the GM screen exists.
There are two clear sides to this debate. On the one hand, you have GMs that like to roll in the open. They want their players to know whether they won or lost fair and square, and would sooner start a new campaign than meddle with the whims of fate. On the other hand, you have the GMs who only roll the dice because of the noise they make. These GMs desire above all else to craft a satisfying story for their players. That’s why they’ll look you straight in the eye and tell you that Lord Evildark failed his save vs. death, knowing that it’s a lie, but also knowing it will make an epic moment for the heroic assassin.
Between these two points you’ll get all kinds of equivocation. I only fudge in favor of the players. I only do it to help newbies survive. I’ll only fudge if it’s an important villain that would otherwise go down like a chump. I don’t pretend to have the answers here. The only thing I will say is that, if you do decide to bend the rules, you better have a high Bluff score. Changing the dice is one thing. It might or might not make for a better game. Letting your players know that you’ve changed the dice is something else entirely. It’s like a magician explaining his tricks. The magic disappears when you get a glimpse behind the curtain, and no PC wants to live knowing that their legend has an asterisk next to it.
Any dang way, what do the rest of you guys think? GM fudge, yea or nay? Let’s hear it in the comments!
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My DM does it ALL the time, and I bear witness to a lot of what goes on behind the screen. It’s all in good fun though, as it’s mostly done to screw with the idiots of the group. Hell, he even goes as far as to fudge the DC’s of things from time to time, just to make things more interesting.
What do the aforementioned idiots do to deserve such tyranny?
Make terrible characters, do stupid things, and are generally hated by the rest of the table for everything they do.
It’s a whole case of “Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.” They do something stupid, the DC is being increased.
I sense that your group may have greater problems than fudged dice. Is there a reason you can’t boot the negative elements?
They are in no way negative influences, they are more like the jesters in the king’s court. They know it, they roll with it. And if they do something stupid, it’s on them.
My mistake then. It’s just that when I hear, “They’re generally hated by the rest of the table for everything they do,” I have traumatic flashbacks to my own high school games. It was a dark and angsty time.
I’m an open roller, myself. The only hidden rolls are ones that make little sense for the party to see, like Lord Evildark’s insight checks when you first meet him at King Gonnadie’s royal gala.
The dice must be respected, in my opinion. The random element is the only thing that allows you to play a game with permanent death involved and keep it fun. That means rolling openly and accepting the results. Otherwise, you’ll always wonder if you narrowly won the day, or instead got that asterisk.
Open rolling also fosters a good relationship between DM and players, because the dice are positioned as the ultimate danger for the party. When you roll in private and the enemy crits three times in a row, players start suspecting you are trying to kill their characters. When it happens out in the open, we all mourn and curse the dice gods together.
That’s not to say I can’t modify the difficulty of an encounter on the fly. My favorite tool is to change the conditions of the fight. Too many enemies? Find some reasonable explanation as to why some run off, stop fighting, lose their nerve, or have a breakdown in tactics. Too few? Reinforcements show up, or i’ll throw in another encounter later. Too predictable? Have an ogre show up like the Kool-Aid Man and start fighting both sides.
The random element is what creates and drives much of the story at my tables. Personally I feel that preserving it is vital. 🙂
You bring up an interesting point about hidden rolls. I like an element of interactivity with my trap finding, so I’ll hide results on Disable Device as well as deception.
Any way you play it, whether it be reinforcements, ad hoc bonus hp to a monster, or a fudged die, I suspect that most GMs want some element in there to keep combat dynamic. The million dollar question is how you can do that while fending off the dreaded asterisk. Nobody wants to feel like they’re only winning thanks to playing on easy mode.
I DMed for a group of veteran players, so I was able to avoid the asterisk by just letting them die. We had two PC deaths in LMoP. I might be more tempted to fudge a bit for new players, who may not stick around if they lose their first character too quickly.
Incidentally, I do believe that there is a Yuan-Ti, or perhaps a Lamia depending on the edition. Nagas only have humanoid heads, the rest of them is danger noodle.
They’re adventuring in Azeroth this week: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HEkmqFmwXVU/maxresdefault.jpg
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Note to Laurel. Super secret. No one else look: I told you we’d get called out on it!
I would also point out as a GM, make sure all of your notes are in order.
Otherwise they are wondering if that healing item you had them make the check to find was actually there a second ago, when you simply forgot until that moment…
I suspect there’s a story in there somewhere…? Something along the lines of, “Shit guys, I think this might be a TPK.” Followed by the GM: “Erm… so I did mention that the altar is covered with small vials marked with little red crosses, right?”
Nah just perception check to notice the dead guy with a potion.
I only tend to fudge in order to keep players and important NPCs from dying to incredibly random whims of chance. And usually it’s only for players if it’s my fault for them being in that situation, like if I’m using a monster that is way too strong for its CR.
Players only get a free pass when I screw up. If they cause their own deaths then it’s their own fault.
How random is ‘random?’ I mean, we do play these games using dice. What’s an example of the ‘incredibly random whims of chance’ that might require the intervention of fudge?
I try not to fudge dice, for the many reasons MSK laid out above. Reinforcements, environmental difficulties, etc are a much better way to change the difficulty of the fight.
That said, there is one area I admit to fudging: enemy hp. Even then I try to do it very sparingly, usually when an attack would have only left the baddie with single digit hitpoints left. The sorcerer hits the 33 hp animated armors with a fireball for 32 damage? Let her one shot them, it gives her an awesome moment without changing much. Again, I try to do it sparringly and only by a few hp, so the dice gods are still king and it usually doesn’t actually change the outcome of a fight, just gives a player a cool moment.
The time that most sticks out in my mind was in the final session of a long running campaign. Tje party was assaulting the castle of the high inquisitor of Hextor. This inquisitor was personally responsible for razing the paladins village and killing his parents, so this was the culmination of his arc. Long story short, the party got into combat, and it was brutal. An assassin the bbeg had hired and the party had a history with one-shot an npc the party had been traveling with since level 4, one of the party members was suffering from insanity from previous events and the dice commanded it kick in at the worst possible time, so right off the bat it goes from a 4v1 fight with the bbeg to a 2.5v2.5 fight (insanity is nasty). That was a really dark moment for the party where they genuinely wondered if all of the campaign would end in a tpk. Fortunately, through clever actions and no small amount of luck (none fudged) they managed to turn things back around. The mystic revived the npc warlock who managed to banish the assassin, the insane pc manages to snap out of it, and they all charges the bbeg. And then they realized just how crazy high this guy’s AC, hp, saves, and damage was (ypu don’t get to he high inquisitor of Hextor by neing a punk). Combined with his magic swag he just wasn’t going down. The paladin went down twice, both times brought back by the mystic who was at this point running on fumes, and the insane barbariam was getting dangerously low on hp.
The second time the paladin got up, with a mere 1 hp to his name, he grabbed his profane sword of Tiamat, the one that he had pulled from the banderhobb cave way back at 5th level, readied his last smite, and with a high attack roll brought it down on the bbeg. The bbeg had 3 hitpoints left. At this point the fight was pretty much over, the bbeg was gonna die, and that was simply too good a dramatic moment to pass up. So instead of saying the padadin just barely avoided finishing off the bbeg and the killing blow going to their npc companion (who was up next) I decided the bbeg just had 3 less hp. It was a glorious moment that the paladin loved without changing the outcome of the fight or fudging the dice.
Again, I try to do it sparingly and only by tiny increments lest the party think the bad guy’s hp are in constant flux, and I try not to fudge dice (if in the aforementioned example the paladin had missed his attacks they would have still missed, as the dice command), but for little moments like that I’m alright with tweaking things like DC or HP just enough to let them have their awesome moment.
Holy wall of text Batman! Sorry, I just started typing and hit post without going back and seeing just how long it was.
No worries. I write RPG screeds on a twice-a-week basis. It’s only fair that you get one. 😛
I tend to agree with this bit of your rationale: If the fight is pretty much over, and if the bbeg is gonna die anyway, then give the players the coolest possible moment. Of course, that can also go awry if you mishandle it: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/race-to-the-finish
I will admit to the very occasional HP fudge as well.
I think that one of the most important parts of any story can be how characters and players deal with the death of a character, or the dire straits that a fudged die often avoids.
D&D and its derivatives, and most RPGs in general, are built around heroic and power fantasies. We as players generally want to feel like our characters are making a difference in the world. Many mechanics have evolved to change this in the decades and editions that these RPGs have grown.
In older editions of D&D, you die at 0. Then a 2E alternate rule (variant) was made codified in 3E, where you die at -10. Feeling this was not enough, Pathfinder changed it to death at Negative-Constitution-Score. 5E has since made it “fail three death saves”, but statistically it is easier to succeed than fail.
Dealing with death can also make for an interesting story. I have played in a game where the Lawful Good Fighter was killed in battle. The cleric didn’t have the necessary Diamond to revive the Fighter, and the party did not have enough spare cash to buy one.
This turned into a plot hook: reluctant to lose a friend and knowing they would struggle to win in combat without him, the Scout (me) and the cleric set out to steal a gem from a noble, so they could bring back their friend. The other characters dealt with the possibility of losing their friend or having to go on for quite some time before they could save the cash to bring him back. When we brought back the Fighter, he was not alright with the methods used to bring him back, and he later repaid the noble they stole from.
If a character dies before a level where you can Raise them, it can also be an interesting lesson about loss for the party. It is nice to assume that a party of level 1 characters will be heroes together, but not everyone can make the cut. And that hardship is something that is important for players as well.
Fudging the dice can be done well, and used sparingly, I think it is a good tool in the DM’s playbook. But I think too often it is used to avoid killing a character, and that robs the players of an equally impacting story. This is only one aspect of a fudged die though, and for others I don’t have as strong an opinion.
Love that diamond story. You remember how I talked about being a fan of the reincarnate spell over here?
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/karma
It hadn’t occurred to me to use material components like diamonds as plot hooks. I always looked at them as simple cash penalties for death. Cheers!
To expand on the idea of diamonds as quest hooks, imagine the significance of diamonds in a world where they bring the dead back to life. A noble having a diamond stashed away in case of emergencies is almost akin to a Lich and their phylactery. Stealing one isn’t just a matter of stealing a rare rock, it’s like stealing cancer medication. I imagine that the basic 300 GP diamond, which costs so much a Commoner could never afford it, is like a wee little chip, or maybe a small, flawed and murky stone.
I openly admit to fudging my rolls, and my players knows it. What they don’t know is which rolls are real and which ones aren’t. I don it because I feel that the game is all about story telling and excitement. By fudging the odd roll here and there I feel like I’m keeping the story alive, the battles more fun and epic, and my players high fiving each other after a long and, what they perceive to be a difficult and engaging battle. So, do they know I fudge, yes. Do they care, not really. The best thing odd if I roll an actual crit, and they are shocked, I show them the die. That way they know that yeah I’m doing it, but not all the time.
It’s all about preserving the illusion. When a big crit or a big miss comes up, I like to throw up my hands all deGrasse style, lean back in the chair, and let them peer over the screen. That moment when they crane their necks, wondering whether the 20 or the 1 came up on the die, is pure gold.
As a GM I’ll certainly fudge rolls from time to time. Heck I even tell my players they’re allowed to too. If a nat 1 or nat 20 at that particular moment is going to make the game better for everyone, I’m fine with someone just declaring it was so.
Within moderation of course. Easily beating every foe isn’t any fun. But if it’s the difference between “I hit the orc” or “I jump off the roof and cut off both the orcs’ heads before I land”, I think most people are going to agree the later is more fun for everyone.
I’ve also had other GMs tell me the same thing. Though most of my games are on a forum with a built in dice roller, so it doesn’t come up much.
Neato! You’re the first person I’ve met that allows fudging on the player side. If my “we’re all joint authors in a collaborative fiction” theories hold true, then that ought to be alright. It’s just that my knee jerk reaction is “that’s bad-wrong-fun!” Something about it feels like cheating, though I’m pretty sure that’s just an ingrained attitude from years of reading “my player cheats by using poorly marked dice” threads.
Can you go into a little extra detail on the practice? When have you seen players use the “go ahead and fudge” rule to good effect? Have they ever abused it?
Hmmm, it doesn’t come up very often (I’m pretty sure they typically don’t even remember I said it). I’m pretty sure one of them commonly fudges the dice so that their character fails knowledge checks.
I know I’ve given myself a few opportune Nat 1s (comedicly failing a stealth check so that I did a whole mission impossible stealth act…. in full view of everyone and a check to not vomit so I instead did a Vomit Rainboom).
The interesting thing I notice with this rule is that people seem more likely to use it to assure failure than assure success. Probably largely because the GM is generally not going to object to you playing up a massive failure to get exactly what you want out of it the way they might for success.
This has renewed my interest in trying out Star Wards: Edge of the Empire. The interesting consequences of failing with opportunities or succeeding with complications seems designed for this style of play.
That’s one thing I love about Mutants and Masterminds is the Victory Points. Basically, the rules say the DM is allowed to cheat against the players, but he must then “apologize” by giving a victory point (e.g. You tried to shoot the bbeg just before he activated his escape pod? Sorry, you just ran out of bullets. Everyone get a victory point.) Everyone also starts each session with a victory point, and they are very strong. Give you an entire new ability you never had for one turn, counter the villain’s attack as a reaction, reroll a dice and the reroll will not be below a 10, etc. M&M is a much more narrative focused game so it works, but I love how the rules for fudging on both sides of the screen are explicitly laid out in the rules.
Huh. I was so focused on figuring out my own powers I never stopped to look at the GM side of the M&M’s rules. I might have to go back and give my copy of the book another look. Cheers!
Half the things my players roll for don’t have a DC (or sometimes even an AC) before the roll happens.
Some enemies are a few hit points tougher than others, because I “rolled in advance” for hp. Or maybe because I happen to know that the party can still take one more hit from this guy (to deal 1d8+1 damage to the last conscious player with 10hp) to really put a bit of dramatic flair into the end of a battle.
Just today, someone’s pet drake was on two failed death saves. He had just gotten the drake too, and worked so hard for it. Depending on that third roll, the player might have found out that the drake happens to have advantage on any save that would result in it dying. (He had influenced the egg by magic to get a more durable pet, but never learned how well it had worked)
If you’re playing Pathfinder 1Ed, bring out the Dual Cursed Oracle for the Misfortune ability. Immediate action to fudge somebody’s dice. Rerolls for enemy 20s, rerolls for allied 1s. Go with Life as your mystery for tons of channels, fudge all those rolls all day, every day, but only once per day per target.
I’ve thrown a group of Oracle Liches of Life at the party, and it was a blast. Summoned skeleton waves, animated zombies, halls of (Skel)archers with (Zom)pikemen and (Skel)mudra swordmen in hidden alcoves along the way. The party just kept being told to reroll, and it drove them nuts. End result was an adventure that I was told was one of the most annoying, and yet enjoyable they had done, just because the challenge was getting those bad rolls out of the way early so that the harder fight against the liches was without their uses per day.
One of my favorite things in gaming is feeling what my character is feeling. If the mechanics reflect the game world, and if I’m feeling a little bit of what my character is feeling, I think that’s a good day at the office. Even if the emotion in question is something like “frustration.”
My Oracle/Paladin/Bloodrager/Swashbuckler/Ranger was a Dual-Cursed Oracle (because at that point, why not?), and it’s a GREAT ability. It’s a very handy support power on both the offensive (reroll that nat 1 attack or failed crit confirmation) and defensive (the enemy rerolls that nat 20, you reroll your failed save), but the “immediate action, once per creature per day” rule makes it a very tactical decision. Is my ally going to need to reroll something else today? Is something else going to come up this round that I would rather reroll? And the whole party gets in on the decision, because it’s a power that directly affects them.
In my case, i am more of preferring not knowing even my own rolls, as when i know, i can get a lot more information than my characters and break immersion, being the most cliched when getting a natural 1 on spot checks, or in D&D knowing the type of enemy it is (glass cannon, dex based or armour based) or how dangerous from when i get to hit it. Apart from that while i will act in character and think and move like if there was nothing around, but my subconscious most probably won’t, so the issue is doubled.
On the side of the DM, i trust them enough to give a good use to fumbling dices, and when they aren’t is usually easy to tell, so i don’t mind if he does sometimes, so DMs rolling behind the wall is ok. The moment you described when the DM raises his hands so the others can go and see the roll is precious too.
Fudging health to create a good experience, i approve of it, but fudging the health or roll so the newbies do not die, i am more conflicted with it:
– On one side one fudge on level 1 is good till they get a a hang of it and i know that the more years pass the more the players are used to roleplaying being like a typical high budget videogame with its handheld and teddybear-care mechanics so it is needed to keep them in the game, recruit new blood, and make campaigns last
– But on the other side, it also i think it can increase the number of Kender alikes and Leroy Jenkins in a not fun way characters and in general people who never learn or try to and just move from being newbies to noobs, which can be a bit frustrating for the DM and to other players, in several ways.