Literally
Here’s a question to pucker your cerebellum. Suppose you’re an English-speaking gamer. Supposing you’re gaming in a generic fantasy world. Is your PC speaking English?
“Well no, Claire,” says our old friend the Straw Golem. “It says right here on my character sheet that we’re speaking Common. The words we say aloud as players are no doubt mere approximations of the what the fictional character says.”
That’s probably true in a lot of cases. Although I enjoy in-character voice acting, I’m willing to bet my bard has a better singing voice than me. I can’t speak elvish, even if my ranger can. And whenever I move my speech into a descriptive mode (e.g. “I politely decline Lady Duplicity’s quest”) it’s assumed that my character is speaking words that I’m not.
But on the other hand, a whole lot of riddling and in-game verse seems to rely on the linguistic particularity of the players’ language. Same deal with puns and humor. And even if you dismiss that with, “It’s just a translation from the original,” we still run into the issue depicted in today’s comic.
Occultist is a known gamesman and general cheaty-face. For such a player, falling back on “that’s not what I actually say” can become a get-out-of-social-encounter-free card. We all occasionally joke around in that pseudo in-character way that gamers love (e.g. “I compliment His Majesty on the new throne, and congratulate him on ripping off Emperor Palpatine.”) However, using the wiggle-room of humor to wriggle out of diplomatic incidents smacks of poor form.
So what do you think, Handbook-World? This is a subtle and hard-to-spot kind of interaction, but have you ever seen it out in the wilds? Is it an issue of gamesmanship, or is it just the cost of doing business on the borderline between in-character and out? Give us all your best tales of “not literally saying” things down in the comments!
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I find that “Well, bless your heart, sugar” covers a lot of situations.
Depending on the tone it can vary from genuinely warm and friendly to scathing putdown — and yet the words are exactly the same. And the beauty of it is, you can make it sound like category A while meaning category B. Just make sure to keep up that poker face…
poke‘er face is what the guards have been ordered to do.
They were trained by Commander Gaga.
This makes me thing of the comic DM of the Rings. When the fellowship runs into Rohan riders, Gimli’s player rolls a one on his diplomacy check, and his player decides to call them ‘horse f**kers’.
Games could probably have the players make a roll to determine whether or not the other party gets the intent of their words. Of course the DM could use the standard tool of AYSAT (Are You Sure About That).
It’s one of the unacknowledged tasks that we all take on when we play these games.
Clever Dialogue + Bad Roll
Shitty Dialogue + Good Roll
You have to make both of those things make sense narratively.
Well I just learned that Frodo Baggins was actually canonically named Maura Labingi. Why did you lie to us all this time, John Ronald Reuel?
I’m gonna side with our friend the Straw Golem by adding that, not being English speakers, our gaming group’s characters do not speak English even in translation.
Anyways. My favorite story of “did your character actually say that?” was when the king of a faerie realm offered us a full chest of treasure to help us do something important, but said it was a loan that we had a year to refund. Quoth a player, “what a bitch!”
> what a bitch!
Fighter knows that feel, bro.
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/well-spoken
Usually, once the GM has started narrating the NPC’s reaction to your outburst, it’s too late to take it back. Exceptions are occasionally made, especially if the alternative would essentially be a TPK or quest failure, but seeing the empress telling her guards to take your head before the universe gets Memory Lapse’d usually gets the players back in line so that they focus on the seriousness of the moment.
I know a lot of players get their jollies by backsassing gods and monarchs, but that always felt like that cheapened the fantasy. If every audience with every powerful NPC is, “I will gladly ignore your disrespect because I need the adventure to continue,” the fiction begins to wear thin.
Generally, its understood at my table that unless the player wants to communicate something verbatim, like an insult or poem or something, theyre telling me the point theyre trying to make, not the actual sentence. Some people want to be literal more than others, and knowing that is mostly a case of knowing the person speaking. If theres uncertainty, I break out the “are you sure?” question and that gets them to clarify real quick.
> Some people want to be literal more than others
This linguistic element is a trip! What is said and and what is meant is different from person to person based on personal preference rather than convention or context? Holy hell are social dynamics complicated!
Generally I distinguish in-character talk from out of character talk by only using my character voice when my character is the one speaking, while using my normal voice for game talk.
One time when my character made a social faux-pas by saying we were with a group they should know the people we’re trying to negotiate with hate I asked the DM if I could roll a Wisdom check to have the presence of mind not to do that and take back those spoken words.
I wonder if you could codify the “retroactive whoopsie” into an actual mechanic? Yeesh… I wonder how you could even flavor that? Time magic?
It helped that it was something my character would know is stupid but I lacked context for.
That said, I am partial to Intelligence/Wisdom checks as/before PCs do something stupid/unwise that give them an out. It’s my version of “Are you sure” but actually based on the character’s abilities.
Check out the “common sense” merit over here.
http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/The_Long_Second_Age–Merits_And_Flaws
XD
I think an argument can be made that the irl language the players are speaking is on game common. If yiu got people, especially the DM, who knows more than one language, you can have those be your elvish, dwarvish, etc. I remember a story where this teacher set up a DND club at an elementary school. They discovered one of the players wasn’t a strong English speaker, so they decided that their PC spoke mainly in elvish (Spanish) and someone else interpreted for them.
I’ve always been jealous of multilingual gamers. Had great fun over my summer in Berlin declaring Dragonborn = Greek and Dwarven = German. My European players got a hoot out of it anyway.
And Orc = Hungarian.
…I should know. 😛
Ooh… Say something orcish!
Mit szeretnél hallani orkul? “Összetörlek, hogy az unokáid is a darabjaiddal fognak kirakózni”, vagy inkább “Hogy *****nád szájba a vacogós fogú cápát”?
Is today’s comic meant as a commentary on WotC’s attempts at spin doctoring the OGL fiasco?
Oh man! That would have been a really clever way to…
…
Yes. Yes, that is what I meant. >_>
I recall one very fun run of Curse of the Crimson Throne, where the whole party spent a point on Linguistics so we could share a language. The real kicker was that it was a sign language we’d created as a party, so the chances of baddies – or anyone else – knowing what we were saying went down sharpish!
There was also the added fun of having a difference in how the party-members with high Int (such as a certain Android Alchemist) and those who’d focused more on muscle (resident Dwarf Barbarian / walking alcohol dispensary) ‘spoke’ in it, given how easy or hard it’d been for them to learn.
I always wanted to play with “command word items” in a linguistic way. I thought it could be a fun encounter if some kind of smart monster learned the “very secret” activation words that the party keeps shouting and “pulled the grenade pin” themselves.
I did once have a player with a *very* good ear for nonsense syllables pick up on the BBEG’s command words and ultimately seize control of their magic item. (The player got a gold star for being very smart.)
My players were upset at me for trying the same with their magic carpet. Some kinds of “clever” are for players, not GMs. 🙁
For my groups, it is generally understood that what is said is not always what the characters say. Just like how when a character with an INT of 18 and all the knowledges doesn’t require a player that has memorized every monster manual, a player with a in real life CHA score of 8 shouldn’t be penalized when they say something silly while playing a CHA 18 character
I also have far too many players with a CHA of 8
Oh yikes… I don’t want to dive into this one again. :/
See my comments, subsequent accusations of elitism, recriminations, and clarifications on these two:
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/gather-information
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/strong-silent-type
Whenever someone utters a well-placed (but ill-considered) snark or lets a “sonnuvabitch” or “crap” escape at a sudden surprise, I let them make a Bluff or Concentration check to avoid having their character respond in a similar fashion. It doesn’t matter to me what the character’s language is, if they fail the DC 10 check, they have let some questionable language slip out and the consequences will depend on the situation and whether or not those nearby can understand the language.
My favorite occurrence was a superhero RPG where a PC was negotiating with a giant, mutant rat that was hiding in the ventilation ducts. Negotiations were going so well that finally the rat came into view. I read the description and the player jumped in surprise and blurted things I won’t type. He and the whole table agreed that some *serious* checks were required for him to keep a poker face AND not betray his reaction to the telepathic hell-beast.
“No-no-no. I meant ‘Jesus-tapdancing-fuck on a unicycle’ as a compliment!”
“This is a subtle and hard-to-spot kind of interaction, but have you ever seen it out in the wilds?”
All the friggin time. Despite trying to make a clear distinction between IC and OOC chatter, I’ve always had Players who trod all over the line. Usually when the IC is super serious they can reign it in, but there are always times they can’t. Since I’ve been mostly playing Online via message boards, it’s a lot easier to keep the line from blurring though, and rarely see it crossed in that format.
“Is it an issue of gamesmanship, or is it just the cost of doing business on the borderline between in-character and out?”
The “eat a bag of dicks, but nicely” is gamesmanship, the inadvertent outburst is cost fo doing business.
But I still respect the “Can I say ‘eat a bag of dicks’ but in a way that sounds diplomatic or complimentary?” In which case I ask them to make a roll, and then the whole group can pitch in trying to word a sentence to do what the Player wants, or if necessary I’ll figure something out.
“Give us all your best tales of “not literally saying” things down in the comments!”
The most infamous of this I’ve ever seen was in a Vamp LARP, it wasn’t me, saying it but… the situation was we had a startlingly, ahhh, not-very-bright IRL player who was the city’s Prince (she was the STs girlfriend) who was untouchably powerful and often acted like a complete [DELETED] abusing the powers of the station. One day during the opening of court, a visiting Player (who was only going to be there for a few more games) was being introduced and he remarked, in a very pleasant and complimenting voice, “Why Princess, you’re looking exceptionally vapid today!”
She thanked him.
Four games later (roughly one month) she asked me what vapid meant, In Character no less, and I responded directly and with a delicious brutality, “Something that offers no challenge, in this case I believe they meant intellectually so”.
Suffice to say she was very, very unhappy that the PC who’d said it was long gone. This also was the final straw that led to the game’s dissolution as she began pitching fits in and out of character about all the petty remarks she’d been getting… but that’s another story, for another day.
Personally? I’ve mastered the art of the long-winded non-apology (from playing too many Amber games) and the art of giving the wrong, but still correct, answer. The later is usually more useful in LARPS, where there is no “I didn’t say that” or “roll and then we’ll figure out how you said it”, as you have to say it the way you mean it. And a lot of times people will over or under think and ask the wrong questions making it easy to give the wrong answers.
Amber Diceless? That saucy minx!
Recently reread my Zelazny, and I even had a buddy lend me the source book in preparation for a game. Things never came together though, and I’ve yet to give it a proper try.
> LARPS, where there is no “I didn’t say that” or “roll and then we’ll figure out how you said it”, as you have to say it the way you mean it.
Why are there different rules for this sort of social interaciot in LARPs? Is it because of the “never break character” thing? No time to go back and clarify?
“Amber Diceless? That saucy minx!”
For as much I tend to dislike rules lite games, for some reason I love Amber Diceless, possibly because it’s so up front with GM Fiat and just piles everything onto the sphere, so there is no ambiguity as to what drives the system. Of course you have to have a lot of trust int eh GM, else the game dissolves. I’ve seen more games of Amber dissolve over GMs who wanted to run a “GM vs Players” game where there were no pesky rules and swingy dice to get in their way, so be aware.
But as a collaborative system of “Player suggests and GM says “yes and/but””? it’s great.
“Things never came together though, and I’ve yet to give it a proper try.”
If you’re used to running collaborative systems, Amber can be really great. My suggestions are to set aside the “world” of Amber, and run you’re own thing, or your own version of Amber where the NPCs aren’t quite what Corwin or Merlin describe.
“Why are there different rules for this sort of social interaciot in LARPs? Is it because of the “never break character” thing? No time to go back and clarify?”
Hmmm. My guess is that the interactions are more visceral, you aren’t looking down at a map and your miniature Avatar that represents your “paper-mans”, you are embodying (however well) your Character, //you are your “paper-mans”//.
So while there is a lot of OOC during combat or physical interactions, the purely social and mental side of the play (anything not directly using “rules” to interact with others) becomes a space where the amateur thespians and social mavens thrive (ofttimes despite what actual traits they may have).
All of my favorite gaming moments come from LARPs.
That’s literally something Angela would say!
… Okay, FIGURATIVELY. You know what I mean 😀
Was there a particular moment where she did this biz? And more importantly, is there a cross-promotional link where I can see such an interaction? 😀
I got a Russian accent so very much each character i plays sounds like they want to destroy capitalism 😛
Da comrade!
I love your expressions in this one!
Playing the bardess Shasallah has provided this exact difficulty to me how many times now? And even before, when I was playing a Ghoran cleric named Dobri (look up Dyado Dobri if you want your heart warmed) that I styled after Mr. Rogers. Figuring out how to put the meaning in your heart into the words you’re using is *so tough*. Honestly, I’m glad that roleplaying gives us a chance to practice that skill.
Still, there’s always that second guessing of ‘what if what’s in my heart is the wrong thing for the situation?’ and stuttering explanation of what you’re trying to say. At least, that’s how it often goes for me.
“I go to the nearest cluster of guests and say ‘did you see the, uh…um…the, uh…shoot.”
“You’re gonna start a riot if you just tell the guests about the monsters you’ve found, you know.”
“I know, I know! I don’t know how to put into Shasallah’s words, but what she wants to do is get the message to the civilian partygoers that they’re in danger with monsters lying in wait on all sides and they should be prepared?”
“Okay, roll diplomacy…pretty big ask though, so roll high.”
“Aw crap, 4+22 is…not what I’m gonna need, is it.”
“Nope. You have started a panic. The guests start talking about it, and whispers turn to angry shouts. The Big Bad comes out to set the trap off early. Roll initiatives for next week. It’s gonna be a *big* combat.”
“Aw crap…”
(this is paraphrased from last week, in fact. Tomorrow is fighting time, and I’m gonna have to come up with a speech to convince any townsfolk that will listen that the BBEG is at fault and not our group)
Through this, I’ve learned that you just have to go for it sometimes, and sometimes it won’t work out. Sometimes it will! But not always. It’s okay to stutter and fail! Next time, it becomes a little easier to not say the wrong thing, and eventually, out of nowhere, you avoided so many pitfalls that you made a glorious speech and roused the entire city to action! As long as you’re trying, you can make it there.
> Dyado Dobri
Well that’s uncanny:
https://44.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lygtldRWbg1qakh43o4_250.gif
> stuttering explanation of what you’re trying to say.
I think that this is exactly when you’re supposed to break character.
“Here’s the effect I’m hoping for. I’m not sure how to put it into words, but it would be something like, ‘Blah.'”
If you don’t give the explanation of intent before the interaction, then it’s often hard for a GM to understand your intent. I think the big difference lies in making it a preface rather than a postscript, if that makes any sense.
Definitely does make sense, yeah 😀 The goal is to use the interaction to show your intent whenever possible, but when that doesn’t happen as smoothly as you’d like, there’s no harm in separating ’em out a bit.
My group mostly avoids this kind of problem by making our out-of-character jokes so over-the-top that they can’t be mistaken for in-character dialogue. But also by accepting that, if something falls into the gray area in the middle and someone questions it, it can just be walked back.
On the other hand, if someone doubles down and says “No, I meant to say I’d put their toughest monk in the ground,” then he gets the entire party kicked out of the monastery before we had a chance to ask any of the plot-critical questions. In retrospect, the DM probably could have taken a more moderate response (like just kicking out the offending gladiator and letting the rest of the party do stuff), but that kind of thing wasn’t exactly uncommon, so it might not be such a bad thing if we didn’t start playing D&D with either that player or that DM again after the pandemic.
Not that this is a reference to a specific individual or incident, of course.
> making our out-of-character jokes so over-the-top that they can’t be mistaken for in-character dialogue
Weirdly, I think that the “Palpatine’s throne” thing from the OP is useful here. If you toss in a pop-culture reference, it’s impossible to assume that you’re speaking in-character. Unless of course you’re playing Paranoia.
or Toon
Generally I only make note of out-of-game stuff, if I think it would be funny for the NPC to react to it. But there are cases where I misunderstand it. It also doesn´t help that one of my players is a bit of a blurter, that sometimes blurt out things when they get too excited. Such as meta-gaming stuff or thoughts about especially jerkish NPCs. The first part I generally shut down, for the latter part it can be fun to have the NPCs react to it, but I have learned to just let it pass.
Some of my players also have a tendency towards saying incredibly threatening and hostile things, without realizing that what they are saying is incredibly threatening and hostile until they look at the players and mine reaction to it. Have made for some fun moments, through. When the NPCs react to it.
Then there was the one time the Fighter accidentally yelled out a bunch of stuff about the groups demon cat and how evil it was. In the middle of a town of Paladins. Because the out of game argument about it got to a pretty high-energy level.
> Generally I only make note of out-of-game stuff, if I think it would be funny for the NPC to react to it.
Speaking as a humorist and an RPG geek, this is some of my favorite shit in the world.
Player: “You call yourself a duchess? With this shabby excuse for a banquet? I bet you order pumpkin spice everything.”
NPC: “Pumpkin spice is delicious!”
Player: “Pfft. You only married upward when you prince matched you to a glass Ugg boot.”
NPC: “My Uggs are the height of style *and* comfort! Guards, seizer her! And put on my Miley Cyrus mix tape!”
The longer you keep that sort of thing going the more ridiculous it gets. Cracks me up every time.
I play my games online via text, so it’s mostly a non-issue.
It’s pretty clear that someone talking without some quotation marks around the text isn’t talking word-for-word in-character.
Similarly, we use parenthetical text for things we want to make known are just ooc chatter.
Do folks ever forget to add the parenthetical?
Sometimes. But it’s usually pretty clear then as well; we might joke (I punt the orphan) and forget the parenthesis, but we typically emote in-character with *italics*.
i mentioned it back in the druid court episode. about that time all was going well until my character used the wrong words when he tried to pacify the opponent we wanted to befriend.
( https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/druid-court?unapproved=130990&moderation-hash=84182ddb34b95557cdeec5b0c24fe2ed#comment-130990 )
They are all the same.
Cat out of the bag.
Pussy out of the bag.
Pussy cat out of the bag.
Pussycat out of the bag.