Thief + Wizard, Part 4/5
The invitations are heading out! And if they’re making it all the way to The Evil Party, then you know that this Thief + Wizard wedding is going to be huge. I just hope Laurel forgives me for asking her to draw all those characters. And dang way, what do you say we while away our countdown to the big day by discussing the fine art of guestlist management? As Antipaladin is discovering, it can be a delicate topic.
Just so we start on the same page, let me first direct you toward the “Five Geek Social Fallacies.” I’ve linked to ’em once or twice before, but they’re very much in the back of my head with today’s comic. More specifically, I’m looking at “Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil.” Kind of an ironic title, what with The Evil Party being the ones ostracized, but let’s leave that for now. The important thing to look at is the level of social discomfort being generated by the snub. No doubt our wicked ladies have all manner of resentments whirling through their malicious little minds.
They didn’t invite me. They must secretly hate me. I’d better hex the shit out of them.
And while it can be great fun playing the vengeful party guest in a fantasy story, the home game isn’t so great. That’s why it’s important to realize that invitations to the game (or the lack thereof) are not personal.
Take my group for instance. We’ve got something like thirty members kicking around in our private forum. There are half a dozen different ongoing campaign between us. But you know what none of those campaigns have? Thirty friggin’ players. I told you guys about the time we tried to cram nine PCs into a Shadowrun game. It was way too many cooks in the cyberpunk kitchen. Pairing that mess down to a reasonable number was necessary. And as much as I miss my Cajun combat troll, it was absolutely the right call to bow out.
What I’m saying is that there are limited seats at a well-balanced table. You might get one or you might not. But when simple arithmetic is at play, you probably shouldn’t take it personally. These days, whenever one of my buddies starts a campaign it’s a drama-free experience. The call goes out, the interested parties raise their hands, and 4-6 of us get the nod. As a GM making that decision, I might want a player who I haven’t gamed with in a while. Maybe I want genre aficionados. Maybe I want expert players for a high-level game, or complete neophytes that can learn a new system with me. There are a thousand and one good reasons for a disinvite beyond “my friends secretly hate me and don’t want to be my friend anymore.” So if you ever find yourself in the shoes of Witch/Necromancer/Succubus, do yourself a favor and assume it’s one of those good reasons. It’ll probably result in fewer hexings in any case.
Question of the day then! Have you ever had to winnow down the guestlist for a campaign? Did the uninvited players take it amiss, or did you keep it cordial? Conversely, have you ever found yourself without a seat at the table? Do you feel like it was an intentional snub, or were you alright with the situation? Tell us your tale down in the comments!
THIS COMIC SUCKS! IT NEEDS MORE [INSERT OPINION HERE] Is your favorite class missing from the Handbook of Heroes? Maybe you want to see more dragonborn or aarakocra? Then check out the “Quest Giver” reward level over on the The Handbook of Heroes Patreon. You’ll become part of the monthly vote to see which elements get featured in the comic next!
Well… Succubus and Thief have hated each other for ages. No surprise there.
Necromancer and Witch… I’m a little surprised. I thought Necromancer and Wizard got along. So did Necromancer and Fighter (which is a minus).
Maybe Thief and Wizard want to minimize the number of pretty girls at their wedding? Or it’s a fairytale thing in Witch’s case, with a witch substituting for an evil faerie.
Necromancy Wizard can still be Fighter’s +1 since we never got any resolution to that.
What resolution? Theirs could be a ‘business’ relationship.
Granted, Fighter desecrated the dead for free, but the two of them need not have a lot of contact outside that item of shared business.
They were on a date in The Tavern.
Oh, right…
Resolution was on a Handbook of Erotic Fantasy comic. Suffice it to say that it wasn’t a long-term relationship.
Paladin might take Necro as his +1! And Succubus/Witch can easily scam or charm their ways in as well via Lord Cragchin or such. I ponder if the evil noblewoman got invited as well.
Seems unlikely, given that Skitters caught her scheming to murder the party on Wizard’s scry-phone.
Wizard is minimizing the number of evil spellcasters with access to unholy magic or other wedding-demolishing powers (Antipaladin is evil, but LAWFUL evil).
Thief is minimizing the number of hotties because she’s jelly. And she hates Succubus.
They might also be trying to avoid anyone they had interactions (or didn’t have) in the other handbook.
I actually believe Oathbreaker is CE. He specifically works for not-Lolth, and Lolth is a CE Demon.
Chaotic Evil doesn’t have to be a mad-dog. It just means you’re selfish/cruel and believe that nobody should be able to tell you what to do. That’s just as easily a CEO or Ayn Rand-protagonist.
As relationships change and availability opens and closes, we have frequently had to remove and exchange players at my table. There are at least a couple players hanging around in the wings waiting for the next campaign because i flat out told them there are too many people at the current table as it is and i simply cannot handle a party of this size, so WAIT YOUR DARN TURN PEASANT!
Most of these people are friends of friends who just want to play a game with someone in the current table, so im not hugely worried about offending them, but holy crap is it obnoxious to have them be so presumptuous as to invite themselves to our table and then get put off when i tell them that no, we dont have any room. Especially when we tried to get them in before and they werent available on game day at the time.
Grrr wra snarl vent.
Bad manners on their part. I don’t get how it’s possible to assume that you’re invited to a game. Were they brand new to the hobby or something?
No. As near as i can tell, they just decided that because this friend of theirs was in the game, they were allowed and encouraged to try and play as well.
And then meanwhile were telling them no, the group is full and they arent even free on the day that we play on, and theyre still just insisting on adjusting their schedule because theyre really excited to play.
This guy is really off putting to most of us, but he only ever hangs out with the one mutual friend outside of the game so we have a fairly limited ability to really communicate with him.
Well hey, if he’s actually off-putting and you don’t want to deal with him, that’s your prerogative. Same answer applies: “The game is full.”
For me, it sounds like the real conversation needs to happen with the dude who extended the invite. I’m a big believer in getting buy-in from the full group before new players join up. This mess is why.
Thats the problem. The other dude didnt extend an invite either. He’s just a mutual friend that this problem guy heard was playing a game. Problem Guy basically inserted himself into our group conversation by way of this friend.
Its a mess because he isnt playing with us and he knows he isnt playing with us, but he keeps acting like he will be playing with us. And obviously we cant just tell our mutual friend who he is or is not allowed to associate with outside the game.
Well, this hobby is all about fantasy I guess.
As a Canadian, I find anything people might find insulting or rude incredibly hard to do. Doing all my games over discord helps with this, as I can just invite people with private messages. Really brings my stress level down. The other campaign I’m in has another advantage here in that it can handle a huge number of players. This does mean that we have some ‘players’ that have never taken part in a single encounter, but they mostly just lurk on the server, so I don’t really care.
Just gotta normalize it. “Sorry, man. Campaign is full. Maybe the next one.” The only response at that point is, “I understand. No problem.” If folks can’t accept that, it’s on them.
I’ve had some paranoia that people who haven’t had time for a session were actually just avoiding me/the campaign in the past.
I want something like Wizard and Thief’s wedding to happen in our campaign, where every noteworthy character friendly to the heroes is at some happy event or other. Like a guest list bigger than the assets in your NSFW comic’s ad down there.
Chin up! Your campaign is awesome and they have conflicts. That’s not on you.
We did an election in my megadungeon campaign this year. Lots of fun to finally get one of the PCs on the town council. Lots of goofy NPC action in that one.
If you think people’s feelings are hurt now, just wait until Evil Paladin has to pick who his “plus one” is going to be!
Antipaladin is obviously taking Patches the Unkicked. 😛
What about Sorc’s mom and Antipaladins ‘boss’? She’s the one he can’t afford to offend! Unless she’s already invited / some kind of relative already.
Our core gaming group usually ran with about 6 players plus a DM. On occasion, some of our more gregarious members would throw out an invite to new friends without consulting the DM or the host and our game night roster would swell to ten or more. We muddled through amicably until one night, six months before Covid, when the session started late, the drinking started early, three or four separate (loud) conversations were carried on simultaneously, and a gnome tank riding a minotaur tank riding a flaming nightmare decided to headbutt the mainmast of an enemy galleon. (It was supposed to be a stealth action to scout enemy numbers.) The party won the resulting confused shipboard melee, but the Game Night crew never fully recovered. While we managed to have two marvelous game sessions afterward with 4 players plus the DM, the full crew never reassembled before Covid put the temporary kabosh on in-person gaming and the frequent (former) host of Game Night vowed “never again.” (Some of us are still welcome for cards or board game nights that seat 4-6.)
Sounds like an amazing session. Also sounds like one I wouldn’t want to repeat too often.
I’ve been getting more into the idea of guest players lately. I like the idea of adding a new player for a new dynamic every once in a while. But that mess NEEDS to be discussed ahead of time.
I’m honestly a bit surprised at this pick. I don’t think Oathbreaker has interacted with any of the main-party, so I didn’t really think there wasa dynamic. His only relation is that he works for Thief’s fiendish influence.
“Oathbreaker”? I am way too young to complain about the kids these days, especially since Antipaladin is named after what they were called from before my introductory edition, but…
Anyways, part of Antipaladin’s schtick is him not being sufficiently vile. Having a mildly cordial offscreen relationship with the heroes kinda fits that role; having to nervously calm down his buddies definitely does.
Also keep in mind that Fighter is CE and has desecrated corpses for Necromancer ‘for the evulz’. For all we know, Antipaladin and Fighter met through Necromancer and are drinking buddies.
I came in during 2E, so I actually could go on a “Kids these days” rant. 2E’s version of the concept was “Anti-Paladin.” 3-4E had “Blackguard”. 5E has “Oathbreaker”, and there was a UA “Oath of Treachery” that was closer mechanically to the 2E wrestling-heel version of the concept.
This comic is edition-agnostic, and often references 5E. Insisting we call concepts that exist in multiple editions by the Mathfinder names is the most tedious kind of edition-warring.
Your point is not invalid.
However, I would like to point out that the character in question is only ever referred to as “Antipaladin”, not as a class or concept, but as the closest he has to a name.
It’s even his identification on the cast page.
Why not call characters what the comic authors call them?
Yes, the characters are edition-ambiguous representations of basic archetypes, but they have established, canonical names. Consistently referring to them by the terms of your preferred system instead of their names smacks more than a little of “the most tedious kind of edition warring”.
5e may be the preferred system of myself and many others, but that doesn’t mean we should discard all reference to the many other variations of this hobby we all enjoy. There’s room on the internet for all of them.
I haven’t had to pare down a game group size since college and likewise haven’t been not included in a campaign unless it was long since underway and it would be weird forcing in a character that didn’t gel with the rest of the group. I generally don’t mix most of the groups I’m in, since they’re VERY different individuals and I don’t want to create unnecessary drama from trying to get people who aren’t necessarily going to get along to play together. I wish my groups were in the 4-6 range. Instead I have two groups with 3 players and a GM and a third group with 7 players and the GM.
How does that 7 player game handle? Six is about as much as I like to run before I find that side conversations make things unwieldy.
It’s very unwieldy, both from side conversations and from actually trying to keep track of everything. Our DM is great, but there’s only so much one person can handle. While I love the idea of a big adventuring party, in practice any more than five or six players is extremely difficult to manage. There is just too much to juggle for all but the most resourceful and dedicated of DM/GMs.
Yeah, that’s been my experience as well. I was just hoping for some trick to make it a little more feasible for those moments when two groups come together in a shared fiction session (or other, similar one-off situations).
In any case, it’s as dependent on the players as it is on the GM. Even the best GM is only as good as their players are at working together, and even then there’s a limit to how well a large group can work together. I don’t like using Critical Role as an example, since they’re generally the exception to the rule on what you can expect from a gaming group, but the reason they’re so good isn’t just because Matt’s an excellent DM with a lot of resources, but also because his players are truly exceptional as role players.
They’re certainly able to maintain focus better than your average player. Maybe the cameras help.
Some games thrive on the chaos of thirty simultaneous players. They are not games to be played every day.
My group hasn’t been gaming much over the past year, for obvious reasons, but for a few months in the summer we got together outdoors for a Shadowrun campaign…except for the guy with asthma and his girlfriend, because he’s in a high-risk group and she’s close to him (duh). So, you know, health takes precedence over cyberpunk/urban fantasy gaming.
(Is there a term for cyberpunk/urban fantasy? Cyberfantasy? Are there examples other than Shadowrun?)
Is there a system that handles 30 well? I’m assuming PbP or LARP.
No idea on the genre question. “Bright” is the other example, but I have no clue what it’s called.
Hmm, it seems like all females of the Handbook world have Frightful Presence and Burning Gaze as innate abilities.
In my experience, the females of our world share these powers. Usually when you ask them to draw complicated wedding scenes.
Anti-Paladin: “I’m never getting this glitterdust off of the skulls decorating my armor, am I…?”
Maybe Patches will get a kick out of tussling with them, which should make Antipaladin happy. ^_^
Club soda and hydraulic blast on low.
So I may have mentioned this before, but my campaign has a lot of players. And I mean a LOT. 9 regulars, with 16 characters between them, and another 34 (no, I’m not exaggerating) people who’ve played bit-parts in the narrative at one time or another. That said, that number of people isn’t in one game at a time – rather, they’re spread out between different elements of a plot taking place in the same world, with various groups forming and changing members as the narrative develops. An actual game will have 3-9 from that group, depending on who’s necessary to the plot, and nobody objects to that since they know that I give everyone a turn in the spotlight. On the other hand, I have had people want to join and be unable to (hence the large cast of extras), which has occasionally upset some folks.
When it comes to games external to my main campaign, though, I’m pretty bad at limiting numbers… which is why the largest game I’ve ever run featured 16 people. The numbers dropped to 12 by the end, though, since a few people got bored and left. The largest number I’ve maintained throughout a session (two hours long) was 14, and both I and the (mostly new) players really enjoyed it, to the point of them asking me to run a second game a month later (which was cancelled due to COVID.)
I guess we’re just masochistic like that.
It’s the people getting bored and walking away that I fear. For me, this hobby is all about creative input. When you become one of 14 instead of one of six, that influence feels much much less over the course of a campaign.
I do like the idea of occasional special games with lots of players though. Any tips for handling crowds that large?
Yeah, I would never recommend this for more than one-shots.
My tips:
14 players felt massively easier than 16; evidently for them too. Certainly, don’t go above the latter number.
Chess timers! Max 1 minute for your combat turn and 10 minutes for any group planning, then any undecided actions go to a vote. Plan your actions on your turn.
If you want the party co-operating, go Exploration-heavy. It’s the fastest pillar, even if you use detailed rules (which you should). Even with timers, combat WILL last forever, and heavy roleplay frequently runs afoul of…
Splitting the party. Normally, I’m a proponent of it, but here? Don’t, except perhaps in campfire scenes (a must in this style of game). Hopefully the “why” is self-explanatory.
3rd-level max. If doing a PvP melee, you might be able to go to 5, but I don’t recommend it. Speaking of which…
If doing combat, include at least some PvP. Whether teams or Hobbesian all-against-all, it will speed the game by reducing the player numbers throughout. That said, don’t run this sort of game over more than three or so hours, lest those who die early lose interest.
Keep DM dialogue short and snappy. Do not lose player attention – odds are you’ll never regain it.
I do hope those are useful.
Cheers! I hope I can find this comment again when I actually run one of these things. 🙂
NOTE: for some reason your comment-checking system seems to have decided that I’m reposting this. Fairly sure I’m not, but I’m adding this comment at the beginning in order to change the nature of the text.
I’ve mentioned this before, but my campaign has quite a few players. And by “quite a few” I mean “a LOT.” 9 regulars, with 16 characters between them, and another… 32? 34? people who’ve played bit-parts in the narrative at one time or another. That said, that number of people isn’t in one game at a time – rather, they’re spread out between different elements of a plot taking place in the same world, with various groups forming and changing members as the narrative develops. An actual game will have 3-9 from that group, depending on who’s necessary to the plot, and nobody objects to that since they know that I give everyone a turn in the spotlight. On the other hand, I have had people want to join and be unable to (hence the large cast of extras), which has occasionally upset some folks.
When it comes to games external to my main campaign, though, I’m pretty bad at limiting numbers… which is why the largest game I’ve ever run featured 16 people. The numbers dropped to 12 by the end, though, since a few people got bored and left. The largest number I’ve maintained throughout a session (two hours long) was 14, and both I and the (mostly new) players really enjoyed it, to the point of them asking me to run a second game a month later (which was cancelled due to COVID.)
I guess we’re just masochistic like that.
Ah… it has in fact posted twice. Guess it was just delayed the first time? Not sure how it both blocked and allowed my first post, though.
It’s possible you accidentally submitted it twice. I don’t know what happened on your end of how the site’s set up on the back end, but I’ve seen that kind of stuff on plenty of websites before. Click to submit, click again (either accidentally or because you’re not sure the first one registered) and get an error message, but the first request went through (which is why the error message came up), so it’s still there.
That makes a degree of sense, yes. Thanks!
I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the same tendencies that make Witch Chaotic Awesome are probably responsible for a shockingly low number of invitations. Necromancer’s permanent odeur de mort-vivant may also lead to shockingly few invitations, especially with the prospective surprise reunions with friends and family (awkward).
Succubus undoubtedly has a vast depth of experience appropriate for a party event and would likely even give the best gifts however, so it may be worth inviting the arch enemy for choice wedding loot. It also might resolve the feud.
Or maybe not, but that’s what diplomacy checks are for!
I like that quest hook. Can the party put up with an obnoxious guest long enough to receive a lavish gift? I wonder what kinds of annoying behavior a hypothetical wedding dragon could get up to…?
I think that’s the premise of an ’80s comedy flick.
If only more RPGs started as ’80s comedy flicks! Like, where’s my “The Goonies RPG?”
As GM’s, isn’t that literally our pervue…?
Why is Anti-paladin invited? Who’s side he is? Bride’s side or bride’s side? Got he invited to the brunch, lunch or both? To the civil ceremony and the religious one? Will he bring a present? Will he bring a present? Will you survive asking Laurel to draw so many characters? The suspense is killing me 😀
He’s the lesser evil.
Bride’s side.
Lunch.
Only one ceremony.
Yes.
Yes.
Likely not.
If you don’t make it past the request, don’t forget to send my invitation 😛
Also hope fighter doesn’t eat the cake before the wedding 🙂
I just hope the cake isn’t a mimic.
Don’t know. I think wedding cakes are either vanilla, chocolate or coconut. Mimics taste like butter instead 🙂
I wonder how many readied action spells and contingencies wizard will have for anyone who even THINKS about piping up during the “speak now or forever hold your peace” bit. (Assuming whichever divine/civil servant they have officiate uses that part in the vows/speech)
Probably enough that the presiding functionary will amend the standard formula to “Speak now and forever hold your pieces.”
The words “please be seated” trigger a silence effect over the audience.
So either Bard or Cleric will be participating in the spellcasting prep?
Or did Wizard invest heavily in Use magic item?
Then again, we know Thief has at least a few ranks in that skill.
Yes.
That’s kind of the default state for pbp games and I’ve often experienced/had to commiserate with a GM looking at 7 or 8 PCs they’d love to have in the party and knowing it’s a terrible idea. (All the worse for all our experience with all those games where you only managed to get one or two PCs/players you really feel happy with.)
Back in my irl playing days I was usually only not selected to play in a game through matter of inconvenience. A few times I did feel snubbed since it wasn’t really any trouble to have included me. But I still got to play in other games so it was never any big deal. My collective group of friends in that time period that were into the hobby was certainly big enough that not everyone played in every game, but it was a lot more about “who has the time/interest” than “there’s too many”. My only irl “too many players” amusingly enough was also Shadowrun. It was still a fun game, but it was certainly clear not everyone felt like they were getting their share of the spotlight. (Which is a shame since its one of my few Shadowrun experiences and one that generated three great tales with…. all within the same extended combat encounter.)
I think the hardest part is knowing that there are frustrated people on the other end of the exchange wondering why they’re being rejected. You’ve seen the rants I’m sure. “I wrote a solid backstory! I’ve been in a dozen games! My credentials are unimpeachable!” It’s distressingly like an HR department wading through a sea of one hundred qualified applicants. Neither party is exactly thrilled about the situation.
More importantly though… What’s this I hear about a Shadowrun combat?
I could swear I’ve brought up at least a bit of that story before. But if not, I guess that’s just extra incentive for you to do some more Shadowrun or Epic Combat moment or the like themed comics. =P
Street Samurai is overdue for another comic. Any requests?
Street Samurai getting asked where her eastern-style armor and katana are at, and her having to explain that she’s not that kind of samurai.
Let’s see… We’ve got Arcane Archer and Kineticist already… I could see this setup working!
Something about improbably lucky rolls would fit my tales nicely. (And would come with the natural companion comic of improbably unlucky ones.)
Something like this? https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/improbable-encounter
With the advent of Cyberpunk 2077, maybe Street Sammy finding herself surrounded by her version of ‘Drizzt clones’?
My current group has a couple dozen players. But we are discord only and have multiple GMs. So there can be different sessions running with each GM stating how many players can join that session, first come first serve. There’s also a system where we can bring in multiple characters after reaching certain levels. That way there’s almost always something being run at a level you can play at. I’m very close to being able to bring in my third character, which I’m looking forward to.
How do you actually find a server like that? Where do they advertise for new members?
I found it through Myth-Weavers. And some people invite their friends. And one guy just joined that was a member of the same group but from a different campaign.
It’s a fun group. Even though a ‘mission’ isn’t run every day, there’s always at least one person to RP with. There’s plenty of downtime so the crafters always have time to craft, and we can generate capital and create customized buildings. There’s even a houserule that lets us have a number of ‘cosmetic’ rooms. Basically it lets you have a room that you might think is cool or thematic to your character but you don’t get any mechanical benefits. I used a lot of my cosmetic room slots for basic living rooms like a bedroom and kitchen. But my monk Tamarie has a dojo because it works for her theme. Meanwhile her mechanical rooms are a garden, sewing room, and hatchery to generate gold. My gun chemist owns a brewery and bar.
Regarding the alt text, I think this is less of a Maleficent situation and more of an Eris situation.
I’m pretty sure Angelina Jolie came before this “Eris” of yours. She’s a DC character, right? >_>
She’s a mythological goddess who according to Greek myth started a war over not not being invited to the wedding of Peleus and Thetis
Naw. You’re thinking of “Hackers.” That was Jolie as well. Really easy to mix up “Hackers” and “The Iliad” though. They’re basically the same movie.