Unsolicited Advice
There’s nothing worse than unsolicited personal advice. There you are minding your own business, just trying to be the best you that you can be, when some jackhole decides to chime in with their shitty hot take.
“Yeah dude, you really ought to go half-elf with that build.”
“Who doesn’t take power attack?”
“I don’t want to tell you your business, but the rapier is the only real option.”
Funny how such opinion-wielders never want to tell you your business, then proceed to tell you your business. Maybe I’ve got storyline reasons for not going half-elf. Maybe I’m challenging myself to build sans power attack. Maybe my short sword was the gladius gifted to me by my Roman-esque mentor before she died in the arena. Rapier doesn’t quite fit into the picture, you know?
Now let-me-be-clear: the key word in all of the above is ‘unsolicited.’ If you’ve gone to the forums or your buddies and asked for an opinion, there’s no reason to get your dander all up in a bother because of honest feedback. The only correct response there is, “Thanks for taking the time to help a gamer out.” If you want to have an ongoing dialogue, maybe you explain your thought process a little and hash out the options from there. But here’s what’s truly obnoxious: Sitting down at a table with a playing-against-type kind of PC and immediately hearing, “Why would you ever make a halfling fighter? That’s an awful choice! Human would have been much better.” If you’re that halfling, the only correct response at that point is to go in for the grundle-stab. As it turns out, your ‘awful choice’ puts you at the perfect height for a nut shot.
Have any of you guys dealt with this mess? What was your build, and what advice was forcibly plungered down your esophagus? Tell us your tales of “expert” build fixes and unsolicited advice down in the comments!
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I have that conversation against myself. I rolled a halfling paladin of Chaldira, the deity of luck, who favors the shortsword. Fabulous idea, let’s save up for a blade of luck, her most holy of weapons!
And my inner voice started making me notice just how much more effective rapiers were. Far more effective. I’m not proud to say that flavor lost that debate.
Sounds like it’s time for a custom short sword feat. I always find a little judiciously applied homebrew to be more satisfying than “let’s reflavor the rapier and call it a short sword.” Of course, you’ve got to have a GM that goes along with the plan, but them’s the breaks I guess.
I fortunately never met anyone who was like that to me, except myself. I always wanna run some quirky or new build (as any player is wont to do) but as I theory craft this orc warlock or kobold barbarian, I get the nagging voice in my head saying “You know this won’t works; it’s a fun meme but when it comes down to it you need to be reliable. Why don’t you add this class/this feat/change to this race so you can be useful and just pretend to keep up the joke?”
And I won’t lie, I’ve seen others make bad choices and want to try and talk them through it. Stuff like reminding the party rogue that no, just because you have an AC of 16 and can fish out the most damage in the team doesn’t mean you’re a front liner. Get in, get out, stay alive and let the meat shields take the beating so you can dish out Damage. Or telling the party cleric that no seriously, you DONT need to just be a heal bot, please take some offensive spells or at least try and use javelins that use your higher strength than crossbows which use your worse dexterity.
I really shouldn’t be telling them how to play, I know. But it’s hard sometimes watching them make tactically bad decisions and I just have to… Deal with it. It’s gotten to the point where I feel like I need to focus more on keeping my party alive than killing the enemy, and I’m usually the barbarian or warlock. I mean I can kill easily, that’s not a problem. I know how to do my part. But when shit hits the fan and our support goes down because they put themselves in a bad position, well shit I need to do something about that.
I heard that. I empathize. It’s still better than the alternative:
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/general-disarray
Yeah I don’t wanna be that guy but dammit, our enemy KNOWS that if he keeps attacking me, it’ll take him at least four or five more turns before I go down, compared to the one or two hits he needs to take you down. This isn’t metagaming! I’m the big buff tough barbarian! You’re the skinny elf with a pokey stick! It’s just sense!
And try as I might with my taunts and threatening banter, even if I’m dishing out the hurt the enemy will of course go after the softer, classier cannons. And I just gotta “play my part” and be the beat stick. Even when I roll up actually intelligent characters, masterminds and the like, I get told off for literally using my class features IC. Just trying to help man. I’m not saying you can’t play. Just trying to make sure you stay alive.
You might remember my take on tanking:
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/tanking
Trying to aggro NPCs is a tough job without aggro mechanics. I feel like that’s one of the things 4e was good at with their ‘marking’ mechanics.
Hell, I even had a buddy who was into being “the defender” with this archetype over in PF1e:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/sacred-shield/
…And people still wouldn’t stand next time him. I honestly think that has to do with the relative “invisibility” of defensive rules. Next time I go that route with a dude, I’m thinking about cutting out little paper “auras” so that the rest of the group will remember where to stand.
I’m pretty good at making unusual builds work or just don’t come up with concepts for too many low survivability builds. Now, I have played sub-optimal many times, but they weren’t “kill me please” bad, just sub-optimal. That being said, it’s become accepted that about 2 out of 5 of my characters are going to be “Kat’s trying something weird” as my munchkin friend puts it. Thankfully, lots of playing Rogue in 3.5 has taught me to leverage my strengths and plan for my weaknesses.
I played a Rogue in a Pathfinder game that got a few groans recently. She was a well built Unchained Rogue, 20 Dexterity, half-elf, Perception Skill Focus with racial Adaptability. But she used daggers and wasn’t a Knife Fighter because I didn’t want to lose Trapfinding. Than and the general “Ugh, Rogue is so overshadowed by Slayer/Ranger/Investigator/Ninja/Etc” was all I heard until at sixth level I declared my first level of Shadowdancer. The Gm nodded like he was paying attention and we continued playing. Four sessions later I easily poisoned, sabotaged and assassinated my way through an orcish War Camp through use of Hide in Plain Sight, a crazy stealth check, and the Shadow Companion combined with the Ninja Trick Pressure Point and Strength Damage Poison.
GM: “They start lighting Torches.”
Me: “Use Magic Device 27 to use my Darkness Wand.”
GM: Glare
Laurel’s bloodrager is working towards shadowdancer right now. There’s some worry about how “we won’t have a big guy anymore” once those levels start piling up, but I suspect it’s going to be more resilient than it looks on paper.
Bloodrager into Shadowdancer is one of the more unusual paths I’ve heard of to get there. The Debuff Potential is there cause it’s pretty well baked into Shadowdancer, and that will help with some of the resilience. Evasion on a Fighter type is pretty dangerous, but her Reflex won’t be as great unless she just has a good Dex. Depending on the Level she enters, Bloodrager could make it beefy enough to survive higher level combat as a dedicated Frontliner. I am curious, keep us informed.
I’m my own worst critic in those sorta case. I’m a powergamer at heart, I love poring through the allowed books to find cool and effective stuff.
However, I also like to try unusual stuff from time to time, because it fits more with the character concept I had, such as a strength-based Bard (a Dwarf solider that was his company’s drum player/standard bearer).
This tendency serves an additional purpose, that is to curb those powergamer tendencies I mentionned above, so I don’t steal the spotlight from the rest of the party that tends to just do whatever. But there are definitely times when I feel like I’m going on a fool errand (“Come on, why did I pick Strength as a main stat? It’s not like I’m going to be attacking a lot past the first few levels. Bards are full casters! And even if I did, Dex would still have been better thanks to the higher AC. And Valor Bard? I already have medium armor proficiency from being a Dwarf. What a waste.”).
But then I find a way to make it work anyway (in this case, that’s having expertise in Athletism and casting Enhance Ability – Strength before grappling the enemies to drag them to my buddies, Skarner style) and it feels that much better.
I might have mentioned my Wizard who has a mental block about flight spells. Same deal. It fun to challenge yourself from time to time.
Dream Cleric… not of what you are… but of what you want to be.
Then Fighter appears wielding Mr. Stabby 😛
I am not a powergamer, neither i am a min-maxer, i respect those who are, but better don’t mess with my build. What makes a man turn min-maxer? Lust of gold? Power? Or were they just born with a heart full of min-maxim? Not every character needs to be OP, optimized or get the 110% of it. Also one must consider that many times the ones who give their opinion of everything are the ones who least accept any opinion, at all 🙁
If someone ask for my opinion i give it to them, and with that i mean that i give my opinion for them to fo as they please. Better that than force your “opinion” on someone or cast your “expert” opinion and then end looking like a idiot. Once we played with a guy who… was… one of my friend’s cousin? Brother? Boyfriend? Well, doesn’t matter. This particular guy goes to the session, invited i must say, and lend us his expert opinion, we begin play and his character dies faster than a red shirt. Great expert that barely can play the game 🙂
Cleric dreams of being young and hot again.
I sometimes imagine that the conservative old dwarves back at Cleric’s Ancestral Hall disapprove of his life choices. But they probably never left to go adventuring in human lands. Armchair adventurers, the lot of them!
You didn’t get the reference, well that is not your kind of game 🙁
Hey, if the other dwarves disapprove of Cleric life choices as you said, then what is doing Cleric? I mean, is he some kind of exile like Durkon, or they give Cleric a funeral prior to go to human lands like he were a member of the Legion of the Dead?
More like “he’s associating with Fighter.” That’s a ‘dishonor on you dishonor on your cow’ sort of situation.
…
And now I want more samurai dwarves in my life.
Why not? Between the cult to ancestors, honor-bound and marcial traditions, dwarves are already pretty Japanese. Adapting them to a oriental game could be… Wait here a moment…
(checks in the back) Where it was? Where it was?… Let me see… Maybe here? AHA!!! (returns)
Pathfinder, campaign setting, Dragon Empire Gazetteer, page 07, there are dwarves in the Tian Xia region, therefor you can make as many dwarves samurai as you want. I wasn’t sure of that but, but yes, with that no DM can say no to Kardag Meiyo aru agohige 🙂
On a second though… By your comment i must understand that Cleric is a girl? Or are they non-binary? Wait, doesn’t matter is not my business what they do with their life. Enjoy your samurai dwarf, i will keep playing with my robotic space ninja 😛
But just think! By subscribing to the Patreon and getting access to the Handbook of Erotic Fantasy comics, it could be your business! 😛
Also of note: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/gender-roles
Transgender naked Cleric. Worst. Marketing. Ever.
Sorry, but if i could put a few dollars in Patreon you would already have them. That other people “enjoy” naked cleric, and that “enjoy” is stretching the word from here to the Far Realm 🙂
Also of note:
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/equal-armortunity 😛
Probably not Colin’s kind of game, Tenno.
The Mission has changed….
Not change the mission, i hate when you go for a capture and end with a extermination 🙁
Glad someone pick up the reference. Enjoy the game and fight with honor… and many mods and forma 😉
When it comes to making characters, I usually try to balance optimization with flavor. It usually depends on whether how I’m making the character. By that I mean if I’m trying to make a concept or just putting a class together. For my bard Lini, it was ‘I’m giving her a level of Swasbuckler to keep her alive.’ For Irlana, it was ‘How crazy can I make her damage output?’ For my character Tara, it was ‘I don’t care if it’s not optimal, she’s getting a single level of bard because her parents made her take music lessons.’
Sounds like you’re ripe for the old “everyone gestalts bard” campaign.
Only if everyone takes a different archetype so we’re not all samsies. The level of bard worked nicely not only for the music lessons her parents made her take, but also for the magic lessons she snuck out to take. The rest is one level of Falcata Swashbuckler and everything else Vigilante.
I also have a Magus with two levels of Oathbound Paladin. He took the Oath of the People’s Champion, which actually gives him Inspired Courage. So… I guess he’s a bit of a bard as well.
Last time I looked at this I remember thinking that standard bard, archaeologist, street performer, and court bard could all play nice together.
I’ll take a look at those. One time on a Dorkly post, they had a bunch of D&D/Pathfinder memes and one mentioned an all bard party that was flavored as a boy band.
So again, I build characters based on what I want to do. And frequently, when I’m particularly scratching my head to concept it out, I’ll ask friends what they think about how I can get this crazy idea to work.
Now I know what you’re thinking-that’s SOLICITED ADVICE! Ah, but see… they like my idea, but then they change the core concept around so that it’s no longer something I’d do because I’m trying NOT to min max a combat maneuver or what have you. I want to do my thing, and typically it goes “well yes, you can do that, but if you do this and – ” and I’m like NO, I WANT TO DO MY THING.
…then it just happens to work out that what I wanted to do is actually horrific and none of us had any idea it was going to turn out that way.
Current example: Made an alchemist. Wanted to specialize in mutagen, feel bombs are overrated. Made the character a Vivisectionist to trade bombs for sneak attack. Looked at my feats… realized I’m Alchemist who gets buff, but has crappy weapon selection. Actually BURNED A FEAT to use Bastard Swords. When she pops mutagen, I’m modeling her personality off an Ork Warboss. At level 3, I crit someone for 40 damage and realized that maybe I MIGHT have over cooked it.
My friends, meanwhile, tried to talk me into the Star Toss Bomb Alchemist, and I was like NO, I want to do my thing! And it’s not as cheesy too! YMMV, I guess…
lol. I dunno, Renki. Vivesection alchemist has a bit of a reputation as a badass. I looked into it when I was considering rolling up a half-orc cannibal cook who wants to sample all the “rare ingredients” by acquiring them fresh from the dungeon. TLRD: Chuck mutagen onto your barbarian, rage, buff, sneak attack, and swing for the fences.
But yeah, hearing ‘how do I make build X?’ and replying with ‘why wouldn’t you just do build Y instead?’ can get old quick. If you’re just riffing on theory-crafting it’s all good. If you’ve got an honest-to-god PC that you’re trying to figure out, I don’t get why you’d try to talk somebody out of their central shtick.
I recall, once, on the Paizo forums, that I went in looking for advice on how to build a cool monk idea that I had come up with. This was early Pathfinder, well before the days of the unchained monk, and little did I know that monks were the boogeymen of the day. The worst class in the game. So multiple ability dependent that you’d need a 40 point buy to make one passable, and I had a mere 15 to work with! Oh no!
The entirety of the advice that I received consisted of how to scrap my monk idea and optimize myself a wizard.
Well, jokes on them. I played a monk anyways! I was useful in spite of “only” having 15 point buy to work with! I punched a werewolf!
Nice! Did you go with the old Treantmonk idea and prioritize Strength?
I think I had a Wisdom focus. Maybe 14 Strength. Strong enough to get by, but far from hyper-optimized.
Wasn’t until a while after that campaign that I ever heard of stuff like Treantmonk guides.
You built the character you wanted and you got a few licks in. That’s a success in my books.
I can see WHY it has that reputation!
This is the part of the exercise where I note that I rarely visit “fan” websites, and don’t game in Pathfinder society. When I make a character, I open up the SRD and start looking at classes and what they DO.
Naturally, I assume everyone builds characters this way because of personal bias, never thinking for a moment there are people who have come up with everything and even just looking around for ten minutes would PROBABLY yield up RPG horror stories.
I’ll always offer unsolicited advice, but always in the form of “if you did X, you’d be able to take advantage of Y feature” just to make sure that they’re making the choices their are out of intention rather than ignorance.
I’m not going to knock anyone’s build as long as it functions at all. (Intelligence 8 wizards do not qualify) I enjoy the variety they bring. The only reason I powerbuild is because I find those synergies between race/feats/classes to be incredibly interesting little puzzles to put together.