Off the Rack
You know that cool weapon you have you eye on? The one that really puts your fighter / monk multiclass over the top and into elite DPS status? Maybe it’s a +3 holy vorpal greatsword. Maybe we’re talking about a specific magical firearm that never has to be reloaded. Maybe it’s something as simple as a rapier with the agile property. Whatever form it takes, this is the bit of kit you need so your build can “turn on” and do what it’s supposed to do. But there’s an important point I’d urge you to keep in mind: It might be many levels of play before that weapons is yours. In fact, it might never happen at all.
Think about all those abortive games you played that never got past 4th level. Think about those GMs who disallowed magic item crafting, or asked for your list of nice-to-have items only to throw them on the loot pile nine levels later. Think about all the issues we discussed back in the aptly-named “Specific Weapons” comic. Altogether, I’m arguing that it’s better to HAVE FUN NOW rather than pinning your hopes and dreams on a particular pointy stick.
The same thinking applies to complex multiclass combos that only come online at 11th level, capstone abilities that (almost) never see play, or the far end of the feat trees where all the choicest morsels hang like overripe fightin’ fruit. If you’re starting out at high level with 50K gold worth of items, then that’s the perfect time to fire off your complex builds. But if you’ve got to get there “the hard way” from level one, I’d urge you to think long and hard about whether all the intervening levels will be enjoyable.
Question of the day then! What’s the longest you’re willing to wait for a build to “turn on” and do its thing? Is there some particular weapon, ability, or prestige class that makes it worth the wait? Sound off in the comments with your own theories of D&D&Delayed gratification!
ADD SOME NSFW TO YOUR FANTASY! If you’ve ever been curious about that Handbook of Erotic Fantasy banner down at the bottom of the page, then you should check out the “Quest Giver” reward level over on The Handbook of Heroes Patreon. Twice a month you’ll get to see what the Handbook cast get up to when the lights go out. Adults only, 18+ years of age, etc. etc.
Pssst! Pugilist! PUGILIST!
3.5 had a feat called Monkey Grip. Go check it out!
“Pug has been doing some reading… She has discovered ancient techniques! Will help Pug fully realize her character arc. Pleeeeeeaaaase?”
https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2010721-tg
If it works for you, Pug, then who would complain? ^_^
… Other than jerks like Fighter and fogies like Cleric, anyway.
*pug casually ascending to godhood*
Let us praise Pug Pug!
She’d be a big step up from Kurtulmak, that’s for sure. ^_^
I’ll gladly proclaim the greatness Pug.
My general rule of thumb is that, if we start at first level, a build have to turn on by level 3, at least mostly.
There can be real cool special things that come later obviously, but by then it should at least be functional enough to “work”. Once that solid base is done you can construct more complex things on top that requires a longer wait and more ressources to truly come online, while you use the base to participate in the meantime.
I think that’s why greatsword builds are so popular in 3.X. Grab power attack and a big stick and you’re baseline functional. You’re virtually free to do whatever from there.
Agreed. It’s hard to screw it up at that point so long as the dice play nicely. In my recently completed Curse campaign, the bloodrager in our group was up and kicking ass very quickly due to this.
Having once played a Hackmaster Wizard who had to roll for random spells at character creation (DM’s rule, not the system), the longest I have had to wait was five levels (Hellooo Fireball).
Generally though, with builds that ‘turn on’ later, I have a rule that they have to be fun now. That does sometime mean I will sacrifice a little effectiveness later, in order to buy myself something thats fun to play in the moment. Case in point, my current D&D character is a Conquest Paladin. They don’t really do their thing until they get their special aura at level 7, so I “wasted” my early feats on things that made the earlier levels fun, even though one in particular will be basically useless now I have hit the level where the class can do its thing. Still, its worth it in my opinion (especially as I am the party tank, so it doesn’t matter that my choice has cost me a couple of % of DPR) to avoid multiple levels of waiting to play.
I’ve thought about doing this as a self-imposed challenge. Was it fun forcing yourself to get creative, or did it feel like a dysfunctional nerf?
Ah, “abortive game”. So that’s what it’s called. While I didn’t have as many of them as the people playing since 3.5ed, the ones I had certainly shaped my character creation.
Basically, I have no patience at all. The characters must be fun to play immediately, from the start. And thanks to Tasha’s Cauldron I don’t even have to take Variant Human all the time to fine-tune them via feats.
I’d be willing to wait for the subclass features, so LVL3 max. Maybe, if I’m very invested, LVL5 when multiclassing. But that’s veering dangerously close to disappointment when the game gets “aborted”.
These are pretty much all we played in high school.
“Guys! I have a great idea for a game!”
two sessions later
“Sorry guys. I’m all out of ideas and I don’t know where to go next. Let’s try the Star Trek RPG though!”
I think this question of what level is tolerable varies with a build’s expectations and requirements. I find that the key levels 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 is when most builds are expected to truly shine, depending on what you ‘get’ by then.
Level three unlocks the most basic class skills, elevates your survivability/hp outside of the realm of a commoner who dies to one crit, and offers sufficient gold/funding/loot to have most mundane adventuring gear, like the much needed +1 magic weapon or armor. You also get a feat, and it’s the minimum level for any crafting of magic items.
Level five is the bare minimum ‘balanced’ level in Pathfinder to universally unlock flight options, whether by spell access or by class abilities ‘allowing’ it (e.g. flight hex), for classes that need that mobility. It’s also another feat level. Most crafters start to shine as well, having 1-2 craft feats, access to rings, and enough gold to cheat out early magic gear for their party or themselves.
Level six is when most classes have gotten all their key class abilities that would be reasonable for a heroic mortal. Beyond this, they start to ramp up in supernatural or absurd class powers and start to access to ‘superhero’ abilities. This is the treshold for low-magic or ‘commoner’ games.
Level 8 is when even the slowest of the slow classes (i.e. druid, investigator) get their key abilities, or when most builds acquire key feats or feat chains they need to function. It’s also the bare minimum level where revival and resurrection spells become available turning PC death less hazardous – your build doesn’t have to be scrapped/rerolled and your story doesn’t end on the spot, barring a TPK.
Level 10 is when many classes acquire their ‘advanced’ abilities (e.g. advanced talents, hexes, ninja trocks) or truly powerful class options and start to usher in the rocket tag levels. Funding is also sufficient to acquire expensive magic items (especially magic rings, staves and such) or stuff like magical transportation, housing, etc.
Beyond this, level 15-20 are when all but the slowest of builds are considered complete (casters getting 7th spells is when they start to destroy encounters). Most APs lasting into levels 17 at most (the level your BBEG is balanced to face as a CR20 end-boss and the PC casters get 9th spells), or the elusive level 20 for truly epic/mythic adventures.
Overall, if you’re playing an AP, it’s wise to ask your DM in advance what levels the AP concludes at, and try to build an expectation of how to make your build work in a fun way before the ‘key levels’ that unlock your true potential.
And never, ever assume you will live to be 20, or even 15. Rocket tag is a bitch.
Do I detect the faintest hint of Exalted in this response? 🙂
Probably! Class abilities up to 6th level seem to be plausibly achievable in a low fantasy setting like Game of Thrones. Beyond that you go into shenanigans, both in powers (e.g. Monks healing by sheer force of willpower, Barbarians ignoring pain outright…) and survivability/numbers (hundreds of hit points of difference, massive ACs, etc).
It’s also a fairly reasonable level of power for the so called ‘E6’ system, where players stop their class progression at 6th level (instead getting increasing amounts of feats). Players ‘peak’ at 6th and from there have to use cunning, lots of money, or their feats alone to handle any creature of high CR – along with costly/rare magic and no safety nets in the form of raise dead spells.
https://esix.pbworks.com/f/E6v041.pdf
I was referring to this biz:
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Scroll_of_Heroes
It’s the book that tells you how to play “heroic mortals” in Exalted.
Judging by that poster in the corner, Alchemist made the mistake of trying to sell Sorcerer at least once.
And either earns minimum wage or requires to up his charisma/profession skill modifier for some jucier tip funds.
Poster context: https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/explosives
Yay! Continuity for the win!
Huh, I though Pug was more of an unarmed build rather than a weapon-using one. Her fists likely beat that dinky dagger by default… Or that Butchering Axe.
Is this like that poor gnome fighter who Fighter barred from Adventure-land?
Maybe Pug should poke around Dragon party then… They’d accept a felloe dragon/scaly, if anything.
Let me put it to you like this. I certainly don’t have proficiency with martial weapons. I still want a ol’ choppy hanging on my wall and opening my beer bottles and such. It’s just cool!
Sooner or later, your PCs will use their artifact rail-cannon rifle as a clothes rack. Or an indestructible club.
as a player of prestige class I’m used to waiting till level 6 for the build to really take off. Hasn’t prevented me from having fun the first 5 levels.
But of an AP bump in the road in „War for the Crown“ is that my animal companion can’t enter most places, so I‘m looking forward to the Hostelling Armor.
Crazy how logistics stop being such a pain at high level. Teleporting out of the dungeon, camping in hostile places, dealing with animal companions… It all just poofs away eventually.
What’s your animal companion? Is it an Allosaurus? I bet it’s an Allosaurus.
https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/major-class-feature
Cuddles is a large tiger.
But WotC has a large component playing out during social events and the events hosts require animals larger than tiny to be housed in the stables.
I even had to get cart with a cage to get through some towns.
I considered getting a small companion and „reduce animal“ it, but by the time this lasts long enough to get me through a whole social event, I can afford the armor (for which I also have to shrink him)
that was supposed to be WftC, the adventure path not WotC the „inventors of new edition for profit“
I’m a huge fan of builds that don’t “turn on” so much as “ramp up”.
I have a 5e grappler concept. At third level, become a rune knight, and now you can make yourself large sized as a bonus action. Then choose: two more levels of fighter (extra attack—two grapples or shoves per action!) OR 3 levels of sorcerer (enlarge person—now you can get HUGE sized, without burning a friend’s spell slot). Either way, you “ramp up” at level 5 or level 6, and then again at level 8.
You can do what you want to do from the beginning, but you get a power jump at certain levels, rather than being not that great and then “turning on”.
Plus, at level 8, you can literally grapple gargantuan sized creatures—meaning any creature in the game. Go on, take that feat at fighter 4 (or level 1 if you’re a variant human!) to get athletics expertise. You deserve it.
Have fun having your friend cast Fly on you so you can grapple dragons to knock them out of the sky.
Oooh… I happen to have a Barbarian 3 / Rogue 1 grappler at the moment. I might have to look into this rune knight business.
Rune knight is great because you get advantage on strength checks when you’re using your large size. Plus, one level of fighter gets you the unarmed fighting style from Tasha’s, which is a 1d8+Str unarmed attack as long as you’re not holding a weapon or shield in your other hand (1d6+str if you are). BUT the way it’s written, it just says “unarmed strike” not “punch”—and the PHB says an unarmed strike can be a headbutt, and a person isn’t a weapon or a shield, so you can grapple two people and still headbutt for damage.
PLUS the automatic 1d4 damage to one grappled creature at the top of your turn, also from the fighting style.
Rune knight’s advantage kind of doubles up with rage, but if you’re getting into a lot of fights per day then it’s nice to have two things with limited uses instead of just one, and this can be used a number of times equal to prof bonus. Plus, you get some extra damage when you’re big, a d6 that explicitly works with unarmed strikes, once per turn.
Grab frost rune to give you bonuses to Str checks once per short rest and fire rune to restrain a creature once per short rest, in addition to the passive effects.
I never play something that has to turn on.
If it isnt fun to play out of the gate, or has that clunky bit, whats the fun having in it?
Its okay to have boosts that happen at x points, but if its not viable at start..
All you are doing is harming yourself in the end i feel.
I think it’s the same biz as a janky combo deck in Magic. You know it’s bad, but when it finally works like you envision it feels awesome.
Nice callback to Sorcerer creeping Alchemist out on this page. 😉
When you work in the demolitions business, you do not want a pyromaniac nosing about the premises.
Who’s the poster even for – Alchemist? His shop employees (if any)? The tumor familiar that occasionally hijacks his body?
Abercrombie needs reminding. Tumor has the attention span of a goldfish.
But can Abercrombie read?
And may I just say how nice it is that Alchemist is fully clothed and unmutated these days? 😉 I didn’t really care to see Abercrombie every time Alchemist put in an appearance… ^^;
Is Abercrombie a tumor goldfish?
If it cant do something fun by level 5, it pretty much just isn’t worth doing in my opinion. I used to plan out my characters to level 5 just to make sure, but I’ve honestly even got out of the habit of doing that. Now I generally stay away from options that aren’t fun from the start. Spheres of Power/Might thankfully leaves enough design space open to make anything fun, even at level 1-2
I’ve also heard that PF2e is strong at letting you “do the thing” from level 1.
my DM said that PF2e is pretty slow to start with the racial heritage stuff:
That it takes a few levels to even get to the as known in 1e.
anyways, I had a short look at the play test and decided „I‘m too old for a new edition“
wow, the system really doesn’t like me today:
I wrote:
That it takes a few levels to even get to the „insert name of favorite race“ as known in 1e.
I rarely make builds that need to wait to turn on. And when I do, they’re on by second or third level.
Most games I’m in don’t last long enough to justify waiting. I can’t even recall playing in a campaign where my character’s level entered the double digits.
How many sessions does a typical campaign last in your group?
Tough to say. We play about once a week and use different systems. Maybe a couple dozen sessions per campaign?
Gotcha. I guess if you’re in one of these “we level up every other session” games, then it’s possible to justify a “turns on” build in a shorter campaign. It’s all manner of tough trusting that a campaign will go even that long though.
Ideally all my builds are doing their main gimmick in some capacity from level 1. Level 3 if the build involves class dipping, level 6 for prestige classes or a specific spell being focused around. For my archers, I need them to have precise shot (and point blank shot as a prereq) from the get-go.
I forget… Do the elephant in the room rules get around those feats? It’s always a feels-bad for me when mandatory feats keep me from taking fun ones. That’s probably part of the reason I shy away from archers.
Our group handled the precise shot feat tax by simply having precise shot and point-blank shot swap places, prerequisites-wise.
Thus, precise shot has no prerequisites and acts as a prerequisite for anything that mentions point-blank shot, whilst point-blank shot now has precise shot as a prerequisite, and acts as precise shot for other feat chains.
This eases up ranged combat for all classes, letting any class remove the -4 penalty for ranged combat, without making any of the martials get a free feat advantage or need ‘less’ investment feat-wise.
My current monk did not fully “turn on” (pun intended… I am playing a ForgeBorn… aka the “less racist” term for a Warforged in our campaign) until I was about level 8 or so and really became fully “viable” at level 11.
Concept: pacifist tank
to fulfill this concept, I needed to be something with high HP and decent AC (so Warforged Juggernaut (now a UA race) combined with high Con) and a class that can potentially deal out damage when needed, but could also “play” the pacifist (Monk – Way of the Open Hand).
The concept is sound, but not really capable until you start getting things like Patient Defense and doesn’t become fully into its own until Tranquility is achieved (at level 11).
But this allows for some great RP as you go from “the attempt” at pacivity (which is destined to fail early on and I RPd that I was trying, but things made me “angry” and no one was listening to me… I would always inform my foes that they had made “the wrong choice” and they could choose to turn away and not fight… they always chose to continue the battle), to actually being able to achieve it.
Now, at level 12, I move into place, take up a defensive stance, and continue to inform my foes that they should stop, because if they do not, then my friends will mess them up, and if i get involved, they will not like it.
It took real time (in game and out) and felt like a true journey and it was fun to RP it to get there.
But overall, I think my personal answer to this question is that it is personal. Each person is going to have a different level of patience (or have none at all) and each game is going to be able to accommodate longer concepts, but each group will have to find their own happy point.
Me, personally, I love making long form concepts, even if they never take off because a game folds before we get there. I still have the concept in mind, and I can try again next time. Or just make another concept entirely and see how far that one gets!
I like the terminology here.
The reason I shy away from those concepts myself is that they tend to feel inflexible. If you’ve already got your story arc planned out from level 1, there’s nothing left to discover. It’s a bit like outlining your novel rather than writing to find out what happens. But styles work, but individual authors will have strong preferences on the matter.
I modify the plan based on the RP, but it never hurts to start with a plan.
I had a druid once that I had a plan to become one thing, but the RP led me down a very different path for her.
So I made a different plan as the game progressed.
Unfortunately, as is often the case, the game folded before I could reach the end, but it was a fun journey (for the most part).
In the same way that the “system matters” crowd likes to shout about mechanics altering play styles, I think that the presence of the plan can corral you into a set pattern. Ditto GMs who prep with session notes rather than winging it. In all cases, the fixed idea is theoretically flexible, but in practice it tends to steer you down a particular path.
Again, nothing wrong with that, but my own personal approach makes me cautious of locking onto what my character is “supposed to be.”
The holy avenger has had a deep fascination on me since reading it in the old equipment lists in 2E AD&D.
Never had a character with one but it’s often in the back of my mind.
As a dude contemplating the the holy vindicator class…
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/apg/holy-vindicator/
…I feel ya. It just has such a good theme song!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wtfhZwyrcc
I’ll admit when it comes to builds, I tend to focus on “what’s useful right now” as opposed to “what’ll be useful in a few levels”. As a result, I tend to make characters who are really good in the short run, but fall behind the rest of their party later.
Sure, my Tabaxi thief-rogue archer with the high speed and pocketful of potions is really good at taking the big things out while running around and keeping his wizardly party members alive. Despite said wizardly party members routinely running into melee with unwarranted confidence. For eight levels worth of content.
Frankly after babysitting these nerds for this long, I’d say I earned a comfortable seat for the rest of the campaign.
I think it’s always worth having a “secondary objective” guy at high level. Being mobile and pulling the lever / saving the hostage / swiping the McGuffin is still a thing even when meteor swarms are popping off.
That’s both a great point and what the character’s ended up becoming! In between the rare moments of “evade tanking”.
I hate the notion of waiting for a build to “turn on”. If you’re playing a character they should be viable for the sake of the fun of everyone at the table including you.
On the subject of the above comic: It always irks me how many magic items are swords. In the 5E DMG all the magic weapons are sword-only. Any time you find a +X weapon in a module it’s a sword. Swords are a sidearm! Give us primary weapons!
Pug deserves enchanted fists.
Just buy some Handwraps (or Handwraps of Mighty Fists, in 2e) and enchant those!
https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Handwraps
Alternately, the Deliquescent Gloves and Demonic Smith’s Gloves let your unarmed punches grab some elemental damage.
Anyone who plays through the Runelord trilogy APs will be astounded by how many ranseurs one encounters as loot. Daggers are likewise common loot for any given caster to carry. Longswords are mandatory for any Paladin, due to being associated with the Holy Avenger and the most smite-happy deity, Iomedae.
You also can’t go around without encountering numerous cleric-only scrolls or wizard-only spellbooks/scrolls.
Conveniently, just yesterday my coincidentally-like-Pug PF2 kobold swashbuckler leveled up to Level 2 and can now toss that dinky war razor in favor of 1d6 Powerful Fists. (The 1d8 Stumbling Swing attacks come at Level 4.) And all it took was critting a ghost for 43 damage!
As for long-delayed power, surprisingly my convoluted multiclass builds (read: all my builds) are generally functional at most of their levels. Occasionally if the campaign is expected to start at higher levels I’ll have a few levels in the pre-campaign past when things didn’t really work that well. I guess it helps that most of my crazy builds are not about hyper-optimizing so much as having lots of options, so they start decent and get better. Martials help a lot with this, since their power usually comes from ability scores, proficiencies, BAB and feats, not higher-level class features. (“Okay, you’re pretty strong and have a greatsword… now you add CHA to saves and can throw that greatsword… now you are even stronger some of the time… now you can deflect enemy attacks…”)
In general I do think that GMs should tell the players what levels the campaign is honestly expected to cover. Obviously campaigns collapse from time to time, but that’s a hard problem to avoid.
Is this usually a secret? I always thought “This AP runs to level 15” was a standard part of the campaign pitch.
In my experience it is nigh universal for prepublished campaigns like APS, and very rare for campaigns that aren’t APs.
Oof. Gotta give folks those expectations. I wanna know if I’m in for five sessions or five years of play.
Vegetal is right. I think part of it comes from GMs either having only a vague idea of what they want to do in the long term, or they are planning a sandbox/emerging story/”let’s just screw around” campaign.
Fortunately for my players, I am a narrative-focused compulsive overplanner, so I can almost always provide them with a decent estimate of the start and end levels. (Probably helps that there’s usually at least a bit of AP DNA in any campaign I make.)
I’m a quick-gratification sort of gamer. I pick what I feel like when I level up and don’t worry too much about specific builds. Thankfully my gaming group is not too big on optimization, so I can get away with playing a divination wizard with evocation and necromancy as her barred schools for 7 levels in a combat-focused campaign.
The closest I’ve gotten to building towards a build is starting a 1st level character in a game, and knowing I’m going to multiclass into Gunslinger at level 2 so she can properly start doing Gun Fu.
I… Isn’t that one of the most powerful builds in the game? Summons + buffs + battlefield control + always going first seem like a pretty big game.
I mean, it might be for a really competent player, but I did not play her optimally, especially for the first few levels. After a few levels (and getting haste) I wised up though and started summoning then hasting big critters to fight for me, but I still didn’t exactly play smart. In the end, I didn’t run away and let something charge into the back of my allies and it killed me with its charge.
In hindsight, she really wasn’t as useless in combat as I had expected her to be. I guess my gamer-lizard brain still mostly associates ‘useful in combat’ with ‘doing the big damage.’
That whole combat = damage thing is part of what Treantmonk talks about in his influential guide:
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test
As it turns out, you stumbled upon an optimal play style. Lol
0s. If a class is only worth at high level that means it’s worthless all the rest of the time. Oh yes, at level 10 you can combine this and that and at level 11 you take that awesome feat. Yet, what you do with your dead weight of a class the previous 9 levels?. Magikarp power isn’t good at roleplay. For that you play another character, kill it at level 11 and then make your real character. That is way more better. Otherwise it would be like a wizard only having the basic cantrips from level 1 to 19 and getting lots of spells at 20. Awesome but impractical 🙂
I don’t know that’s it’s quite as extreme as that (though this is certainly the worst case scenario for the principle). For me, it’s whether or not the character is interesting AT ALL I’m the intervening levels. I’ll out up with a bit of suboptimal if it means godly powers in the late game. That’s the design of the classic dnd wizard after all. But if I’m 100% dead weight in the meantime, it’s a tough sell getting me to put up with the wait.
Even a wizard got good spells before getting high level. They got options and can do good things for the party at least buffing them. A class that needs time to shine is one that doesn’t for a while 🙁
It occurs to me that this whole thread is speaking in generalities.
Can you give me an example of a character build that waits way too long to turn on? What prestige class / feat configuration / etc. spends too many levels dawdling before it can do its big thing?
Most of my builds focus at their potential at level 5-10. Past that, shit gets silly and I either don’t expect the campaigns to last that long, or just accept things are going to get real crazy. I always shut my brain off whenever someone’s “sick build” involved a wish spell or it her abilities past level 16.
Your build isn’t “totally busted” because you have access to 9th level spells. It’s busted if you can take on CR 10 creatures by level 3. Those builds and tactics are what really makes a build busted, not the off chance you survive to become a demigod.
I still maintain that someone should make an E6 adventure path. I think it would do crazy well as a niche product.
My personal rule is that a build should have at least the bare minimum of its main gimmick online by 6th level (not all the bells and whistles, but whatever is defining about their playstyle or character should be doable).
More importantly, however, the character MUST be able to contribute and be fun to play from the level the game starts. When there’s any number of things that can end a campaign early, or result in your character shuffling off the mortal coil before the point you can reliably afford Raise Dead casts, you can’t really afford to spend week after week sitting around thinking about how fun it’ll be/how helpful your character will be in X levels from then.
It’s one of the two reasons why a lot of games in D&D 3.5e and Pathfinder start at 3rd level or higher if not in a game running off a module starting before then, the other being lethality of the odd crit; 3rd level is when you generally have enough character customization for a character’s, well, character, to shine through on the mechanical side of things- be it an odd weapon or a personal spell of choice. Some builds can even hit that ‘bare minimum of the gimmick is functional’ line at 3rd!
For example, one character idea I had was a Psychic Sorcerer (Tattooed Sorcerer archetype) Kitsune with Fox Form as a bonus feat, and a Fey-Touched familiar rabbit; she rode around in a Familiar’s satchel while her familiar took on human form and acted the part of a wizard, the Kitsune using psychic casting’s lack of somatic and verbal components to cast in Fox Form. Functional from 3rd level, and starting earlier would mean the jig is up before it even begins, unless you’re going to pretend you switched from one Sorcerer character to another the moment the group hit 3rd level and happened to keep the same spell load-out.
I think I just realized my own example. The dimensional dervish feat line:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Feats/feat-tree/#D
Every time I sit down to build Nightcrawler, it feels a big fat “not worth it” to me.
Oof, yeah, I believe that feat’s kind of notorious for being really dang cool but not worth the wait.
Earliest I can see it coming online with a build that can use it is… 9th level?
Human, Variant Multiclassing Rules Oracle (Battle Mystery)
Progression:
1. Wizard 1, Favored Prestige Class (Eldritch Knight) feat, Prestigious Spellcaster feat (Human Bonus Feat)
2. Wizard 2
3. Wizard 3, feat forfeited for VMC, take the Revelation that grants Martial Prof.
4. Wizard 4
5. Wizard 5 (free feat, get something nice, or be a non-human and get Prestigious Spellcaster here).
6. Eldritch Knight 1 (Prestigious Spellcaster means you don’t lose a level here), free Combat feat.
7. Eldritch Knight 2, forfeit feat for VMC
8. Fighter 1, Dimensional Agility fighter bonus feat
9. Fighter 2, Dimensional Assault feat, Dimensional Dervish fighter bonus feat.
There’s probably a better way to do it, but this is the best I can think of off-had. You spend 5 levels with no martial abilities of note, are trailing behind in BAB by 3 compared to other martials, only get two free feats to spend how you want (or 1 if non-human) which doesn’t help, and you finally get to do your shenanigans when you’re nearly half-through your progression (and probably over halfway done with the game in question; rarely do characters reach 20th level).
You’re not BAD per se, any Wizard played passably well is gonna contribute fine, but it’s very at odds to the end flavor goal of a teleporting sword master (or punch master). At that point you might as well have just played a magus.
If you want to do this with a Monk, even an Unchained Monk, you’ve got your work cut out for you, too. If you want an unarmed flavor to it, you can be a Brawler for 2 levels instead of a Fighter, the only downside being you’re spending a move action and a limited per day class resource to get Dimensional Dervish online until much later where you can take it normally (VMC to get into EK early hurts).
Aaaand sorry to double post but I just realized this doesn’t work because the dimension dervish line of feats are not combat feats. Why?!
Bright side-ish, I found this feat which cuts out some of the harder parts of getting the build online: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/conduit-feats/flickering-step-conduit/
Upside: Dimension Door as an SLA, and lets you treat the Dimensional Agility feat chain as combat feats. Downside is, it takes to 9th level to get this feat, so the wait is going to be longer. I guess you could go full Monk (preferably Unchained) and then dip Fighter 1, and go to Monk 12 to have the full chain at 13th with Abundant Step giving you more uses? Still way too long to wait, though…
It’s been a while since I looked into it, but I seem to recall this prestige class being a centerpiece for some interesting builds:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/apg/horizon-walker/
A quick google also turned up this intriguing biz:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/5sjj3j/build_the_ultimate_shadowdancer_or_how_i_learned/
I’m sure these could be fine builds, but again: if you’re trying to be Nightcrawler, being a normal PC in the meantime while you slowly build up to it is all manner of frustrating.
I think the answer depends heavily on the other party members. If you’re all playing late bloomer builds, the party might TPK long before ANY of you get to do your cool stuff. But if some of the party is running good early-level builds that function at lower levels, you can afford to run a build that doesn’t get to full power until later.
If a build isn’t at least functional at level 3 and more or less complete at latest level 5/6, it’s not a build, it is a wish list.
OK, that’s a bit of a generalization and a harsh one at that. In 5e, it’s mostly true since you get your most important features fairly early on. In Pathfinder it’s not quite true since feats are such an important part of doing anything and many of them aren’t available until fairly late in the game. But there’s a degree of accuracy despite that due to the likelihood that a character will die before reaching those higher levels.
Level 6 in D20.
If it’s not at least coming online and starting to really get into the groove of what you want it to do by level 6, I don’t care how great the idea is on paper. You’re getting into a very long amount of time to be carried by your friends, and your friends have every right to make you pay for it later.
I’m fine with a build never coming fully online in game, as long as it can at least do its basic stuff in the meantime. A lot of my builds don’t REALLY hit their big stuff until level 7 minimum, but my arcane trickster will still be using mobile and familiar to simulate a swashbuckler even if he doesn’t get elven accuracy or ritual caster wizard until level 8 and 12 respectively. My Lore Bard Goolock will still be using Mask of Many Faces even before getting the Actor Feat at level 6 that really nails down the disguises and espionage. My Necrolock (Necromancer 7-9/Undying Warlock 13-11) doesn’t even start raising dead until at least level 7, and not in any quantity until 11, but in the meantime eldritch blasts and familiar leveraging can still make him perfectly viable.
This is a big reason why I’m having trouble building Spider-Man and Flash in Pathfinder. I can’t get the builds running until really late levels. There’s even a vigilante archetype that is basically Spider-Man but it doesn’t get web-slinging until level 12. I know that these are pretty hard builds, but I’d like to at least get some stuff going by level 7.
I thought about bringing that vigilante archetype over to my Starfinder campaign. The party in that one work for a National Enquirer type of new organization, and I wanted to do a “bring me pictures of Spider-Man” session. Never quite got around to it though.
I’m having an even harder time with Flash than Spider-Man. It’s not enough to have a high base speed if you still can’t attack while moving.
Always know the intended level spread, coming into a campaign. If a GM has not thought about this before character generation, ask.
Therein lies the difference between a level 1 to 20 campaign (these do exist), and something that you can tell in advance won’t get past level 3 – if it even gets past level 1.
Make me wonder if there’s a good list of thing that players should bring up in Session 0.
I try my best to build characters that are fun to play right now and I have a build set up for higher levels in case it ever happens someday.
There are some exceptions of course. Can you guess what kind? What’s this I hear you saying? “Extremely low levels”? Why, how’d you guess!? =P
Yes, indeed, there’s sort of nothing you can do in some cases about the fact that before level 3 or in some cases maybe level 5 or 6 what you’re aiming to play just won’t be the kind of fun you’re hoping to have.
In my case, right now I’ve got two Artificers that are both 2nd level. Artificer has an extremely bad case of the “you basically aren’t playing this character until level 3” as every single archetype drastically changes how you play the character, being almost unrecognizable to how the class “plays” at level 1 and 2. I say “play” because honestly you’re barely capable of anything at all at those levels. I wound up in a long string of combats with one of them and found I’d basically run out of ways to describe how I cast firebolt and had no real other options. Now at 2nd level, I’m still stuck in the same mode with that one and am just hoping I’ll reach 3rd without so much combat.
For the other artificer when I reached 2nd level I got to switch from cantrip all the time to dagger all the time and will be functioning completely differently again at 3rd once I can have made my magical powered armor.
If someone in your party is playing a paladin, you as a GM are contractually obligated to place a Holy Avenger in their loot as soon as they’re between 14th and 16th level. IT’S THE LAW!!!
Know how I know you’re a paladin?
I must admit I have never really seen the appeal of a Holy Avenger.
The spell resistance downright seems like a drawback rather than a bonus (~20% chance my friend the cleric’s Heal/breath of life/Prayer/Air walk/other buff spell will fizzle on me and or any allies adjacent to me? no thank you. Especially since enemy casters tend to be just a few level higher than you).
As a beat stick it’s nice enough, but I generally prefer a custom weapon commissioned for my actual needs.
The at-will Greater Dispel Magic is pretty useful I’ll admit but it doesn’t seem worth the aforementioned spell resistance.
It’s not about being good. It’s about living the dream. And watching the bad guys’ powers crumble against your Aura of Badassitude is worth a few inconvenient buffing issues.
Respecs.
A lot of what gets players to commit to builds that they won’t ever actually get to play is FOMO, that if they try to have fun now that means they will be punished for having that fun with a less-than-stellar build later.
PF2, at least by default, allows for far more generous respecs than D&D’s historically had, but there’s no reason a GM can’t or shouldn’t allow respecs in their own D&D games. Let players have fun now and then respec later into their cool combo build.
I think one of my favorites so far with this has been Lancer, a tactical mecha RPG that’s got a lot similar with 4e. Every time you gain a license level (level up), you get to trade out up to an entire talent tree, or up to an entire mech license, or change out your core bonus. You’re not even asked to spend money or anything, it’s just something the system allows you to do by default, and it makes it so players are far more willing to just wing it and experiment and see what works rather than agonize over whether they’re forever closing off the potential for a cool build if they go grab a chain axe right now. They still have plenty of time to think about what their build can evolve into, of course, but nothing’s ever set in stone so there isn’t any awkward period waiting for a build to “come online” because you don’t have to sit with a bunch of feats or skills or whatever that you can’t make effective use of for another four levels.
I usually expect a build to be in full swing by about level 7, but I also generally play in games that at least hit the teens, and get close to 20. As such, I make plans for characters all the way up, and I did have one character whom I heavily built around Prismatic Wall usage (I would drop prismatic wall and one of my party members who was great at grappling and super fast basically cheese-gratered enemies on it – I think we managed to break five digits worth of damage in one round a couple of times).
I’ve only been in one non-one-shot game that went into “Probably not going to finish” status before level 10, but I get the feeling I’m a bit of an outlier there.
I also think it depends on how we talk about a character ‘turning on’. Because sometimes you have gameplay that can be well put together, but has a big breakpoint down the line that is really going to elevate it to the next level, so to say. I know one of my player’s is eye’ing level 28 (yes, 28 in a 5e game) licking his lips for that next juicy feature. His character is already fantastic, it does well and is complex, but there are always those big features that can be complete game changers for a character.
So I’ve got this magical gunslinger idea I’ve been wanting to try and the soonest I’ve found I can do it is level 3 in Pathfinder 1E. 1 Level of Gunslinger (Firebrand for CHA for Grit and keeping the Quick-Clear deed) and then 2 levels of Arcane Duelist Bard (getting Arcane Strike for free). I can now shoot my Dragon Pistol with force bullets not needing ammo and I’ve got bard spellcasting and inspire courage to help out on damage. Plus, who doesn’t want to empathize their bardic performance by shooting their magical gun in the air?
I had been looking at Bloodrager originally to try and pull this off but the soonest I had that able to go was around level 5-6ish. This Gunslinger/Bard combo can start much earlier, which is nice for campaigns that start early.
I’m missing the “not needing ammo” component. What’s giving you that?
I think they forgot to mention the feat that requires Arcane Strike and a spellcasting level, Spell Cartridges. That gives you the force-bullets.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/spell-cartridges-combat/
Well damn. That’s one hell of a feat.
My reading comprehension appears to be on the fritz though… Do they deal their force damage in place of the firearm’s baseline damage, or in addition to it?
And this is where weapon groups for weapon focus et al are handy.
yeah it is
Our campaigns have nearly always let players respec their characters at higher levels if they discover a better build to let them-be-them. The one character who got a late-game “oomf” without retraining was my half-orc cleric of Hercules. He began as a one-note joke, the gregarious super-strength oaf who would only memorize healing, enlarge, and strength spells unless specifically asked every morning. Then around level 7 he took a few levels sabbatical from his priestly duties to fill gaps in his build, most notably a level in Monk. Now at level 12, with two levels in Contemplative and the Practiced Spellcaster feat, he might access spells as a Cleric 3 levels lower, but his caster level still matches his HD, he has access to a third Spell Domain, and (when fully amped with the spell divine power) he can throw up to 5 unarmed attacks per round as a delivery system for his enhanced Strength bonus.
They used to laugh when the priest of Hercules came in the room. Now they all shudder.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/500a9ddb856b0fb1442a34adb02dbd90/tenor.gif?itemid=12414563
unrelated to the prompt, but I was wondering if you could please share your megadungeon with me, because it sounds really cool and I would love to run my players through it. If the campaign notes are posted somewhere, or really anything like that, that would be awesome of you. It’s fine if you can’t, I’ll understand, just thought I would ask.
That damn heavy weapon property alienating the small races.
It says “two hands.” I have two hands! THE INJUSTICE!